The Platform Sutra: Sections 3 + 4 and commentary, p83-91 (89-96 on Kindle)

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  • Kokuu
    Dharma Transmitted Priest
    • Nov 2012
    • 6918

    The Platform Sutra: Sections 3 + 4 and commentary, p83-91 (89-96 on Kindle)

    Dear all

    This week we will look at sections 3 and 4 and the accompanying commentary. This comprises pages 83-91 in the physical book, and 89-96 on Kindle.

    In this part of the sutra Huineng meets the fifth patriarch, Hungjen, and they engage in some Zen dialogue in which Hungjen asks Huineng how he can be a buddha when he comes from the poor south and is from a less favoured ethnic group. Presumably he is testing Huineng on this rather than believing it, and Huineng rises to the challenge. Huineng is then asked to work milling rice.

    The sutra then shifts to eight months later when Hungjen gathers his monks together and asks them to write a verse expressing their understanding. Red Pine notes that the Chinese word for poetry ‘shih’ originally meant ‘words from the heart’. It is notable that Hungjen admonishes his monks for being more interested in gaining merit that seeing their original nature and that they should approach this assignment as if they were on fire. We might think of the time of the patriarchs as a kind of golden age of Zen, yet it is clear that his monks often lacked a sense of urgency. It is important for all of us to remember what we chant in the Evening Gatha: life and death are of supreme importance, time quickly passes by and opportunity is lost.

    Questions for reflection:
    1. Red Pine notes that it is interesting that Huineng is put to work in the milling room and does not get any teaching or see the inside of the meditation room. Now, with knowledge of texts such as Dōgen’s Advice for the Zen Cook (Tenzokyōkun) we know that kitchen work is not inferior to Zazen. The question is, how easy or otherwise do you find approaching everyday tasks with the mind of Zazen?
    2. This is entirely optional but if you wish, have a go at writing a four line verse. This can either be to express your original nature or else on something else dharma related. I can’t promise a robe and bowl for the winner, though! As is only fair, I have written one and will post it at the end of the thread.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday/lah-
  • Taigen
    Member
    • Jan 2024
    • 95

    #2
    Originally posted by Kokuu
    Questions for reflection:
    1. Red Pine notes that it is interesting that Huineng is put to work in the milling room and does not get any teaching or see the inside of the meditation room. Now, with knowledge of texts such as Dōgen’s Advice for the Zen Cook (Tenzokyōkun) we know that kitchen work is not inferior to Zazen. The question is, how easy or otherwise do you find approaching everyday tasks with the mind of Zazen?
    2. This is entirely optional but if you wish, have a go at writing a four line verse. This can either be to express your original nature or else on something else dharma related. I can’t promise a robe and bowl for the winner, though! As is only fair, I have written one and will post it at the end of the thread.
    1. Not easy, not hard, Zazen mind is ordinary mind. But of course, it is easy to be distracted while tending to the normal things of life, and we should be attentive to those moments when our mind creates it's own suffering, while also being mindful that we don't shame ourselves when it inevitably happens. And of course, not shaming ourselves for shaming ourselves. I guess it's shame turtles all the way down.

    2. Dusting the mirror
    Polishing the stand
    Oh no!
    I've inhaled the fumes

    Gassho,
    Taigen,
    SatLah

    P.S. Perhaps a topic for later discussion, but the whole concept of a "graduation" gatha strikes me as antithetical to Zen. I certainly understand the cultural context, and I appreciate the idea of forcing a concise statement, but the whole situation really seems to reinforces the illusion of progress and attainment. Or, possibly, as an autistic person who struggles with abstraction and metaphor, I just don't like the idea of being evaluated on my poetry skills!

    Comment

    • Kokuu
      Dharma Transmitted Priest
      • Nov 2012
      • 6918

      #3
      Perhaps a topic for later discussion, but the whole concept of a "graduation" gatha strikes me as antithetical to Zen. I certainly understand the cultural context, and I appreciate the idea of forcing a concise statement, but the whole situation really seems to reinforces the illusion of progress and attainment. Or, possibly, as an autistic person who struggles with abstraction and metaphor, I just don't like the idea of being evaluated on my poetry skills!
      I don't actually know how much this as done in the past, but expect that a teacher would far more assess a student based on their overall conduct and practice on a day-to-day basis, and in dokusan interviews over time, rather than a single poem, however good it is.

      That said, being able to express one's understanding whether through the arts or dharma combat has been something that seems to have been traditionally appreciated and encouraged in Zen.

      I hear you about being judged on your poetry skills as I feel the same about my ceremonial practice!

      Gassho
      Kokuu
      -sattoday/lah-

      Comment

      • Hosui
        Member
        • Sep 2024
        • 45

        #4
        Thanks Kokuu for putting us up for this.

        Firstly, I know in my heart that every activity I'm involved in, be it work, domestic, leisure or devotion related, represents an expression of the Dharma. I also know in my heart that I'm not separate from any and all of the elements that constitute these activities, at least not when they're done from zazen, which I do my best, like all of us, to embody. That's not to say my eyes don't glaze over from time to time. How fortunate, then, to be one of Hung-jen's scalded monks, with the luxury of being reminded to take every chance to end the cycle of samsara and to awaken to their/our true nature. You can almost feel the tension and the re-doubling of effort in that gathering, even if Hui-neng was already hard at work showing his true nature in the chilly milling room all that time. There's no place I'd rather be. And secondly, here's an expression of (my) original nature...


        Dharma Water - Hosui
        As the Dharma Body of the Buddhas are the myriad phenomenal dharmas,
        So the superficial waves are identical to the calm waters.
        Seeing water as water is the basis of every conceivable virtue.
        It's in this way the teachings flow, nourishing all.

        Gassho
        Hosui
        sat today / lah
        Last edited by Hosui; 01-27-2025, 08:40 PM.

        Comment

        • Chikyou
          Member
          • May 2022
          • 694

          #5
          1) I occasionally find that I can easily slip into zen mind while working - usually on something menial, like cleaning. Mindfulness during day to day activities is slowly increasing without effort, as I observe the effects of continued practice.

          2) I am the universe
          Manifest, to explore
          I do not die
          I am the stars

          (inspired by the Dharma and Carl Sagan).
          Chikyō 知鏡
          (KellyLM)

          Comment

          • Hosai
            Member
            • Jun 2024
            • 627

            #6
            Originally posted by Kokuu
            Dear all

            In this part of the sutra Huineng meets the fifth patriarch, Hungjen, and they engage in some Zen dialogue in which Hungjen asks Huineng how he can be a buddha when he comes from the poor south and is from a less favoured ethnic group. Presumably he is testing Huineng on this rather than believing it, and Huineng rises to the challenge. Huineng is then asked to work milling rice.
            1. Red Pine notes that it is interesting that Huineng is put to work in the milling room and does not get any teaching or see the inside of the meditation room. Now, with knowledge of texts such as Dōgen’s Advice for the Zen Cook (Tenzokyōkun) we know that kitchen work is not inferior to Zazen. The question is, how easy or otherwise do you find approaching everyday tasks with the mind of Zazen?
            2. This is entirely optional but if you wish, have a go at writing a four line verse. This can either be to express your original nature or else on something else dharma related. I can’t promise a robe and bowl for the winner, though! As is only fair, I have written one and will post it at the end of the thread.
            1.

            I used to think learning how to focus on anything was the point.

            Then I thought focus on specific things like the breath, or energy blockages, or metta was the essential practise.
            ​​​​​
            Then I thought not focusing on anything and letting things flow past my awareness was what I should be focused on.

            ​​​​Then I stopped focusing on that...

            which would probably describe a "normal" state of mind....

            So to the extent that The mind of zazen is the same as ordinary mind. I would say it's not easy, not difficult...

            2.

            not easy, not difficult
            try harder! focus! take control!
            don't try, relax, let go....
            Don't have a fixed perspective and forget youself
            Study yourself and know what's of supreme importance

            ​​​​​​To YOU!

            _/\_
            sat/ah
            hōsai
            防災 Hōsai - Dharma Gatherer

            Comment

            • Kokuu
              Dharma Transmitted Priest
              • Nov 2012
              • 6918

              #7
              Originally posted by Hosai
              not easy, not difficult
              You may already know this story...

              ‘Layman Pang was sitting in his thatched cottage one day, studying the sutras. “Difficult, difficult, difficult,” he suddenly exclaimed, “like trying to store ten bushels of sesame seed in the top of a tree.”
              “Easy, easy, easy,” his wife, Laywoman Pang, answered. “It’s like touching your feet to the floor when you get out of bed.”
              “Neither difficult nor easy,” said their daughter Lingzhao. “It’s like the teachings of the ancestors shining on the hundred grass tips.”


              Gassho
              Kokuu
              -sattoday/lah-

              Comment

              • Furyu
                Member
                • Jul 2023
                • 215

                #8
                If I am deliberate about doing something with the mind of zazen at the outset, it is much easier - cooking, walking, breathing, typing a response to this post. Intention is helpful. Extending zazen to the rest of life means having more and more moments in which I set my intention. I suppose that's the harder part. So, to repeat what everyone has been saying! Not easy, not hard.

                I hope you don't mind that I used some of the previous images in my response.

                stand and mirror vanish
                still waves of dharma
                stars and the universe
                sit zazen and cook dinner

                Gasshō
                Fūryū
                satlah
                風流 - Fūryū - Windflow

                Comment

                • Furyu
                  Member
                  • Jul 2023
                  • 215

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Hosai
                  not easy, not difficult
                  try harder! focus! take control!
                  don't try, relax, let go....
                  Don't have a fixed perspective and forget youself
                  Study yourself and know what's of supreme importance

                  ​​​​​To YOU!
                  Love this.

                  Gasshō
                  Fūryū
                  satlah​
                  風流 - Fūryū - Windflow

                  Comment

                  • Hokuu
                    Member
                    • Apr 2023
                    • 87

                    #10
                    The question is, how easy or otherwise do you find approaching everyday tasks with the mind of Zazen?
                    I find it close to impossible although sometimes I do include a few second zazen before emotionally exhausting calls with my clients.

                    Gassho
                    Hokuu
                    satlah
                    歩空​ (Hokuu)
                    歩 = Walk / 空 = Sky (or Emptiness)
                    "Moving through life with the freedom of walking through open sky"

                    Comment

                    • Kokuu
                      Dharma Transmitted Priest
                      • Nov 2012
                      • 6918

                      #11
                      I find it close to impossible although sometimes I do include a few second zazen before emotionally exhausting calls with my clients.
                      That sounds like a good thing to do. You may also know that Thich Nhat Hanh has a gatha for using the telephone which might be of use:

                      Words can travel thousands of miles.
                      May my words create mutual understanding and love.
                      May they be as beautiful as gems, as lovely as flowers.


                      A Zen psychologist I know also does kinhin between clients as a way of regrounding in awareness and I have taken to doing the same when I am working on a volunteer helpline.

                      Gassho
                      Kokuu
                      -sattoday/lah-

                      Comment

                      • Hoseki
                        Member
                        • Jun 2015
                        • 691

                        #12
                        Hi,
                        1. Red Pine notes that it is interesting that Huineng is put to work in the milling room and does not get any teaching or see the inside of the meditation room. Now, with knowledge of texts such as Dōgen’s Advice for the Zen Cook (Tenzokyōkun) we know that kitchen work is not inferior to Zazen. The question is, how easy or otherwise do you find approaching everyday tasks with the mind of Zazen?
                        I find this to be very difficult. There are times when I'm able to start but then I get caught up in thought. Which I figure is normal but depending on the type of task, repetitive tasks are particularly challenging and I can be in conversation with myself for long periods of time. It's also something I have to come back to periodically as I go long periods without thinking about it. integrating it into my daily life is difficult. I also find that those long periods where I'm more or less talking to myself to often be rewarding in a way. So it's sort of seductive in a way. As a younger man I tried to engage in that kind of thing as much as I could.
                        1. This is entirely optional but if you wish, have a go at writing a four line verse. This can either be to express your original nature or else on something else dharma related.
                        10 000 beings and 100 grasses
                        fill the 10 directions
                        beyond what this eye can see
                        stepping gently I walk unobstructed

                        Gassho,

                        Hoseki
                        sattoday/lah

                        Comment

                        • Chikyou
                          Member
                          • May 2022
                          • 694

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Kokuu

                          That sounds like a good thing to do. You may also know that Thich Nhat Hanh has a gatha for using the telephone which might be of use:

                          Words can travel thousands of miles.
                          May my words create mutual understanding and love.
                          May they be as beautiful as gems, as lovely as flowers.


                          A Zen psychologist I know also does kinhin between clients as a way of regrounding in awareness and I have taken to doing the same when I am working on a volunteer helpline.

                          Gassho
                          Kokuu
                          -sattoday/lah-
                          The further along I get in my practice, the more mindful that I find I am being in day to day life, and I’ve started incorporating more and more little practice moments like this into my life. Someone on this forum (here or somewhere else) mentioned the book Peace is Every Step by Thich Nhat Hahn and I’ve been reading it and really enjoying it. It’s really such simple practice, but the issue I’ve always had is that I cannot force mindfulness. I can’t make myself remember to do it, alarms on my phone get ignored etc. But slowly, steadily, that constant awareness is increasing, seemingly all on its own.

                          Gassho,
                          SatLah
                          Chikyō
                          Chikyō 知鏡
                          (KellyLM)

                          Comment

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