Blue Cliff Record (Case 11) Huang Po's Gobblers of Dregs

[Jundo]

Hello Gobblers,

The CASE is about a teacher of Zen saying to an audience of folks traveling around for teachings that there are no teachers of Zen, and that they all are just gobblers of dregs (eating junk food.)

The POINTER and COMMENTARY are both filled with stories and descriptions praising him as a teacher!
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Question: What could Huang Po's meaning be?
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Gassho, J
stlah

[Matt Johnson]

https://youtu.be/iK0Lm1F7naU?si=9Z_us7m_Cj6EPg3g

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Jundo]

https://youtu.be/iK0Lm1F7naU?si=9Z_us7m_Cj6EPg3g

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

Hmmm. Seems more leprechaun than guru.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Matt Johnson]

Hmmm. Seems more leprechaun than guru.

Gassho, J
stlah

Reminds me of early treeleaf videos... (before Bion's excellent editing).

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

PS: https://youtu.be/eCrlQJkE7S8?si=GjEs7DugcYv295U-

[Ramine]

You can point at the moon, you can't make people see it.
Some see a finger, some see the moon.
The seeing is up to the person looking.
A teacher can't teach. A teacher can point, maybe.
Hanging on each word and chasing teacher's words is chasing after dregs, collecting fingers (yuck!).
There is zen, there are no teachers.
The teacher materializes at the moment of seeing.
Student and teacher arise when the arrow-points meet in mid-air.
Today is now, all the time.

Ramine
Sat and Lah

[ZenJay]

A teacher can only point out the path. The path must be walked, and the student walks it alone. Some confuse a teacher’s words with the path, but as you have said, Jundo, teachers are “a friend along the way”.

*added*-Huang Po is essentially saying you can listen to 1000 teachers and it will do nothing until you walk the path yourself. All you are doing is eating their junk food (zen teachings) to feel good, and wasting your time and energy.

Gassho,
Jay

Sat/lah today

[BikeZen]

Question: What could Huang Po's meaning be?

The whispered description of thunder can never match experiencing being struck by lightning.

Gassho,
Bill
sat/lah

[Hoseki]

Hello Gobblers,

The CASE is about a teacher of Zen saying to an audience of folks traveling around for teachings that there are no teachers of Zen, and that they all are just gobblers of dregs (eating junk food.)

The POINTER and COMMENTARY are both filled with stories and descriptions praising him as a teacher!
.
Question: What could Huang Po's meaning be?
.

Gassho, J
stlah

Hi,

I think Huang Po means Chan isn't something one can master. It will depend on what one means by master but I've seen it refer to both someone very knowledgeable of some thing or other as well as being one who controls a thing.

1. Knowledge: If Chan is knowledge then one would have to be very knowledgeable about Chan. Does Chan reside in the dusty tomes left by our ancestors? Bah! Nothing but road signs for town you no longer live in. How could chan be knowable? How would a fish know what water is without ever having left it? Knowing-not knowing!

2. Control: What is there to control? Who does the controlling? Chan isn't an object, not even the many arms of Kannon can contain it. Yet, it resides peacefully in a single grain of rice.

Note: I hope it's OK that I played around with this one a bit.

Gassho,

Hoseki
sattoday/lah

[Onsho]

Mathematics.
Never invented, only discovered.

The Darmha has always been and we all see, hear, receive and maintain it.

Gassho
Onshō
SatLah

[Brett]

A man with no eyes could find his way home after falling down eventually, but it is certainly helpful to be pointed in the correct direction. How could you possibly know you were helped until you reach your destination though?

st/lah
gassho
Brett

[Tairin]

I believe Jundo has used the term “friend along the path” instead of teacher, roshi, or sensei. I like that. My friend Jundo is further along the path than me. He’s walked it longer. I have a lot to learn from him.

BTW this Koan also appears in the Book of Equanimity as case 53.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

PS now that I look at other people’s responses I see that ZenJay also picked up on the “friend along the way” idea

[Matt Johnson]

No wonder I have few friends! I've been treating them like gurus all this time!

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Koriki]

Sometimes when I read these cases my mind just spins, as was my reaction here after reading the commentary. But after reading others' responses the meaning became clearer. It wasn't that anything was explained, it was just that the gist rose up more clearly. This may be the type of "Zen teaching" being discussed.

Gassho,
Koriki
s@lah

[Chikyou]

I have to wonder, if there aren’t no teachers of the dharma, but infinite teachers of the dharma? If we’re hooked on seeking out gurus, we’re in danger of missing the lessons taught by the rocks.

Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō