Blue Cliff Record (Case 11) Huang Po's Gobblers of Dregs

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40372

    Blue Cliff Record (Case 11) Huang Po's Gobblers of Dregs

    Hello Gobblers,

    The CASE is about a teacher of Zen saying to an audience of folks traveling around for teachings that there are no teachers of Zen, and that they all are just gobblers of dregs (eating junk food.)

    The POINTER and COMMENTARY are both filled with stories and descriptions praising him as a teacher!
    .
    Question: What could Huang Po's meaning be?
    . Gassho, J
    stlah

    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Matt Johnson
    Member
    • Jun 2024
    • 385

    #2


    _/\_
    sat/ah
    matt

    Comment

    • Jundo
      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
      • Apr 2006
      • 40372

      #3
      Originally posted by Matt Johnson
      Hmmm. Seems more leprechaun than guru.

      Gassho, J
      stlah
      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

      Comment

      • Matt Johnson
        Member
        • Jun 2024
        • 385

        #4
        Originally posted by Jundo

        Hmmm. Seems more leprechaun than guru.

        Gassho, J
        stlah
        Reminds me of early treeleaf videos... (before Bion's excellent editing).

        _/\_
        sat/ah
        matt

        PS: https://youtu.be/eCrlQJkE7S8?si=GjEs7DugcYv295U-
        Last edited by Matt Johnson; 10-27-2024, 03:05 AM.

        Comment

        • Ramine
          Member
          • Jul 2023
          • 159

          #5
          You can point at the moon, you can't make people see it.
          Some see a finger, some see the moon.
          The seeing is up to the person looking.
          A teacher can't teach. A teacher can point, maybe.
          Hanging on each word and chasing teacher's words is chasing after dregs, collecting fingers (yuck!).
          There is zen, there are no teachers.
          The teacher materializes at the moment of seeing.
          Student and teacher arise when the arrow-points meet in mid-air.
          Today is now, all the time.

          Ramine
          Sat and Lah

          Comment

          • ZenJay
            Member
            • Apr 2024
            • 166

            #6
            A teacher can only point out the path. The path must be walked, and the student walks it alone. Some confuse a teacher’s words with the path, but as you have said, Jundo, teachers are “a friend along the way”.

            *added*-Huang Po is essentially saying you can listen to 1000 teachers and it will do nothing until you walk the path yourself. All you are doing is eating their junk food (zen teachings) to feel good, and wasting your time and energy.

            Gassho,
            Jay

            Sat/lah today
            Last edited by ZenJay; 10-30-2024, 07:53 PM.

            Comment

            • BikeZen
              Member
              • Jan 2024
              • 67

              #7
              Question: What could Huang Po's meaning be?

              The whispered description of thunder can never match experiencing being struck by lightning.

              Gassho,
              Bill
              sat/lah

              Comment

              • Hoseki
                Member
                • Jun 2015
                • 677

                #8
                Originally posted by Jundo
                Hello Gobblers,

                The CASE is about a teacher of Zen saying to an audience of folks traveling around for teachings that there are no teachers of Zen, and that they all are just gobblers of dregs (eating junk food.)

                The POINTER and COMMENTARY are both filled with stories and descriptions praising him as a teacher!
                .
                Question: What could Huang Po's meaning be?
                . Gassho, J
                stlah
                Hi,

                I think Huang Po means Chan isn't something one can master. It will depend on what one means by master but I've seen it refer to both someone very knowledgeable of some thing or other as well as being one who controls a thing.

                1. Knowledge: If Chan is knowledge then one would have to be very knowledgeable about Chan. Does Chan reside in the dusty tomes left by our ancestors? Bah! Nothing but road signs for town you no longer live in. How could chan be knowable? How would a fish know what water is without ever having left it? Knowing-not knowing!

                2. Control: What is there to control? Who does the controlling? Chan isn't an object, not even the many arms of Kannon can contain it. Yet, it resides peacefully in a single grain of rice.

                Note: I hope it's OK that I played around with this one a bit.

                Gassho,

                Hoseki
                sattoday/lah

                Comment

                • Onsho
                  Member
                  • Aug 2022
                  • 134

                  #9
                  Mathematics.
                  Never invented, only discovered.

                  The Darmha has always been and we all see, hear, receive and maintain it.

                  Gassho
                  Onshō
                  SatLah

                  Comment

                  • Brett
                    Member
                    • Mar 2024
                    • 118

                    #10
                    A man with no eyes could find his way home after falling down eventually, but it is certainly helpful to be pointed in the correct direction. How could you possibly know you were helped until you reach your destination though?

                    st/lah
                    gassho
                    Brett

                    Comment

                    • Tairin
                      Member
                      • Feb 2016
                      • 2826

                      #11
                      I believe Jundo has used the term “friend along the path” instead of teacher, roshi, or sensei. I like that. My friend Jundo is further along the path than me. He’s walked it longer. I have a lot to learn from him.

                      BTW this Koan also appears in the Book of Equanimity as case 53.


                      Tairin
                      Sat today and lah

                      PS now that I look at other people’s responses I see that ZenJay also picked up on the “friend along the way” idea
                      Last edited by Tairin; 11-01-2024, 09:27 PM. Reason: Added a comment after reading other people’s responses
                      泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

                      Comment

                      • Matt Johnson
                        Member
                        • Jun 2024
                        • 385

                        #12
                        No wonder I have few friends! I've been treating them like gurus all this time!

                        _/\_
                        sat/ah
                        ​​​​​matt

                        Comment

                        • Koriki
                          Member
                          • Apr 2022
                          • 241

                          #13
                          Sometimes when I read these cases my mind just spins, as was my reaction here after reading the commentary. But after reading others' responses the meaning became clearer. It wasn't that anything was explained, it was just that the gist rose up more clearly. This may be the type of "Zen teaching" being discussed.

                          Gassho,
                          Koriki
                          s@lah

                          Comment

                          • Chikyou
                            Member
                            • May 2022
                            • 636

                            #14
                            I have to wonder, if there aren’t no teachers of the dharma, but infinite teachers of the dharma? If we’re hooked on seeking out gurus, we’re in danger of missing the lessons taught by the rocks.

                            Gassho,
                            SatLah
                            Chikyō
                            Chikyō 知鏡
                            (KellyLM)

                            Comment

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