ANNOUNCEMENT: Reflections on the Blue Cliff Record ... Coming Soon ...

[Jundo]

HInton is way, way off. and perhaps my least favorite translator of supposedly Buddhist anything. Maybe a good poet (I cannot say) but he is a kind of conman trying to push a fake view of Chan/Zen "history," an angry man with an agenda and axe to grind in his purportedly "Buddhist" translations.

The older and readily available version of the Cleary&Cleary Blue Cliff is fine for our purposes. In fact, excellent for our purposes. I will explain when we dive into the book.

We certainly don't need the commentaries of Hakuin and such.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Jundo]

PS - Just as a footnote, here is an early review I recently gave to Hinton's "Blue Cliff" ... I have since read the book in greater detail, and second what I wrote here ...

An early review is not encouraging. Mr. Hinton, in his other books, tends to twist and exaggerate history to prove the points he wishes, has a very personal and not very precise way of translating, and just makes a mish-mash of things. It is a shame. This review seems to say that the new book is much of the same: "This latest work from David Hinton attempts to re-imagine the Hekiganroku through an odd mix of minimalist, abrupt prose and Instagram-style pop poetry. Unfortunately, his "translation" is not insightful, nor poetic - and has only a faint orthogonal likeness to the Hekiganroku. I have all of Mr. Hinton's books, and most are excellent, but this one clearly misses the mark. All the profound mystery, beauty and depth of the original Chan koans are nowhere to be found." (from Amazon)
Hinton also seems to have stripped away all the poems and commentary by Xuedou and Yuanwu, a bit like republishing the Beatle's White Album without the tracks by John, Paul and George, leaving only Ringo's drums, then replacing them with one's own reworked lyrics.
Let us take a small sample to compare. From Cleary & Cleary translation ...
~~~~
Emperor Wu of Liang asked the great master Bodhidharma, "What is the highest meaning of the holy truths?" Bodhidharma said, "Empty, without holiness." The Emperor said, "Who is facing me?" Bodhidharma replied, "I don't know." The Emperor did not understand. After this Bodhidharma crossed the Yangtse River and came to the kingdom of Wei.
~~~~
From Hinton version ...
~~~~
Southlands Emperor War-True asked the Grand-Master Bodhidharma: "What is the first principle of sage reality?" "Vast-expanse no-sage Absence," replied Bodhidharma. "Then who is this facing me here?" "No idea." The emperor couldn't mirror Bodhidharma's mind. So, Bodhidharma crossed the Yangtze and made his way to the kingdom of Origin Height.
~~~~
Hmmm. Looking at another case, Cleary & Cleary ...
~~~~
A monk asked Chao Chou, " 'The Ultimate Path has no difficulties-just avoid picking and choosing.' What is not picking and choosing?" Chou said, " 'In the heavens and on earth I alone am the Honored One.' [the Baby Buddha's Words at Birth]" The monk said, "This is still picking and choosing." Chou said, "Stupid oaf! Where is the picking and choosing? " The monk was speechless.
~~~~
From Hinton version ...
~~~~
A monk asked Visitation-Land: "You said 'it isn't hard to inhabit Tao's Way. Simply stop picking and choosing' But what is not 'picking and choosing?'" "Of all those in heaven above and earth below, to honor and follow myself alone." "That's still picking and choosing." "You great bumpkin! Where's the picking and choosing?" The monk was dumbfounded, speechless.
~~
I must say that portions of that seem as far apart as heaven and earth. He does seem to be following himself alone.

[Ryumon]

HInton is way, way off. and perhaps my least favorite translator of supposedly Buddhist anything. Maybe a good poet (I cannot say) but he is a kind of conman trying to push a fake view of Chan/Zen "history," an angry man with an agenda and axe to grind in his purportedly "Buddhist" translations.

The older and readily available version of the Cleary&Cleary Blue Cliff is fine for our purposes. In fact, excellent for our purposes. I will explain when we dive into the book.

We certainly don't need the commentaries of Hakuin and such.

Re Hinton; I wouldn't say "angry man," because I understand his translation logic. I have a good friend in France who has translated the Yi Jing, so I understand why Hinton makes some of the choices he makes. Unfortunately, they are interesting to translation theory, but not to readability.

I always got stuck trying to read the Cleary Bros translation. The newer one looks much better, and doesn't feel as clunky. Unfortunately, the only samples only show a couple of koans, but I think it's a good option to consider if one doesn't cotton to the original. They wouldn't have changed the translations if they didn't thing they needed improvements.

Gassho,

Ryūmon (Kirk)

Sat Lah

[Ryumon]

Southlands Emperor War-True asked the Grand-Master Bodhidharma: "What is the first principle of sage reality?" "Vast-expanse no-sage Absence," replied Bodhidharma. "Then who is this facing me here?" "No idea." The emperor couldn't mirror Bodhidharma's mind. So, Bodhidharma crossed the Yangtze and made his way to the kingdom of Origin Height.

There are French translations of the four classics Chinese novels, and they use this sort of translation for proper names. There is a logic to it, if the names mean nothing historically, as the names of Zen masters do. But in this context, it's wrong. It should at least be footnoted.

To be honest, in fiction, I'd rather have the Chinese names in the original with footnotes for the translations; it adds more color.

I believe that Cleary does the same thing in the Flower Ornament Scripture, doesn't he?

Gassho,

Ryūmon (Kirk)

Sat Lah

[Jundo]

Re Hinton; I wouldn't say "angry man," because I understand his translation logic. I have a good friend in France who has translated the Yi Jing, so I understand why Hinton makes some of the choices he makes. Unfortunately, they are interesting to translation theory, but not to readability.

I always got stuck trying to read the Cleary Bros translation. The newer one looks much better, and doesn't feel as clunky. Unfortunately, the only samples only show a couple of koans, but I think it's a good option to consider if one doesn't cotton to the original. They wouldn't have changed the translations if they didn't thing they needed improvements.

Gassho,

Ryūmon (Kirk)

Sat Lah

I have heard interviews with Hinton, and he has an axe to grind against what he sees as "Japanese Zen" and its child, "Western Zen," and really any Zen but his which, to his eyes, is Taoism not Zen.

The Cleary translation is a mess because of all the superfluous elements, very well spelled out in Dr. Heine's wonderful book on the Blue Cliff ...

https://global.oup.com/academic/prod...-9780199397761

This book provides an in-depth textual and literary analysis of the Blue Cliff Record (Chinese Biyanlu, Japanese Hekiganroku), a seminal Chan/Zen Buddhist collection of commentaries on one hundred gongan/koan cases, considered in light of historical, cultural, and intellectual trends from the Song dynasty (960-1279). Compiled by the disciples of Yuanwu Keqin in 1128, the Blue Cliff Record is considered a classic of East Asian literature for its creative integration of prose and verse as well as hybrid or capping-phrase interpretations of perplexing cases.The collection employs a variety of rhetorical devices culled from both classic and vernacular literary sources and styles and is particularly notable for its use of indirection, allusiveness, irony, paradox, and wordplay, all characteristic of the approach of literary or lettered Chan.

However, as instrumental and influential as it is considered to be, the Blue Cliff Record has long been shrouded in controversy. The collection is probably best known today for having been destroyed in the 1130s at the dawn of the Southern Song dynasty (1127-1279) by Dahui Zonggao, Yuanwu's main disciple and harshest critic. It was out of circulation for nearly two centuries before being revived and partially reconstructed in the early 1300s. In this book, Steven Heine examines the diverse ideological connections and disconnections behind subsequent commentaries and translations of the Blue Cliff Record, thereby shedding light on the broad range of gongan literature produced in the eleventh to thirteenth centuries and beyond.

To make a long story short, later commentaries added so many little literary footnotes and barbs, margin notes and quips, that the original simplicity and lessons at the heart were buried. We will focus on the core teachings, and prune away all the extras.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Benjamin Gieseke]

Looking forward to joining in!

Gassho,
Benjamin

[Chikyou]

It's been a while since I've been active in Treeleaf's book club, I'm looking forward to this one!

Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō

[Alina]

Awesome, I just ordered the book!


Gassho
Alina
stlah

[Ramine]

Thank you for starting this reading group, Jundo - the timing is excellent for me as I had just started the Hinton version and I must say that I don't find it very readable! I am looking forward to the version by the Cleary brothers, and to the upcoming discussions.

Gassho,
Ramine
Sat and lah

[Jundo]

Thank you for starting this reading group, Jundo - the timing is excellent for me as I had just started the Hinton version and I must say that I don't find it very readable! I am looking forward to the version by the Cleary brothers, and to the upcoming discussions.

Gassho,
Ramine
Sat and lah

Oh, don't get me started on Hinton! Abomination! Really, oh boy. More "Blue Hinton" than "Blue Cliff." (I see you wrote that you "don't" find it very readable.)

Gassho, Jundo
stlah