Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

[Hoyu]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Hi Bryan,

Good to hear you got it and will be joining in! This advice may help when planing your day around this film. I couldn't find a running time on the DVD or case anywhere! Set aside some time to watch it because it's pretty long! A little over 2hrs I believe.

Gassho,
John

[Kaishin]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

I wonder, how did the film change your perception of Dogen?

For me, it made him seem more human and less of a "mystical" character. Just reading bits of Shobogenzo, I get the feeling that Dogen existed on another plane of reality beyond my conception. Seeing "him" in the flesh reminded me of his humanness. I think that's important. Just a man, like you, like me, like Buddha.

Gassho,
Matt

[Hoyu]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Matt wrote:
For me, it made him seem more human and less of a "mystical" character. Just reading bits of Shobogenzo, I get the feeling that Dogen existed on another plane of reality beyond my conception. Seeing "him" in the flesh reminded me of his humanness. I think that's important. Just a man, like you, like me, like Buddha.

Hi Matt,
I got the same feeling!!

Gassho,
John

[Shokai]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Good point Matt and John, it strips away the hagiographies and gets down to the marrow :shock:

[Kaishin]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

...the hagiographies ...

Today I learned what "hagiography" means

[Saijun]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Hello friends,

You know, I've not really ever gotten the impression that Dogen was a mystical character (possibly due to how little I seem to be able to find vis a vis a biography of the man). He strikes me much more like Ajahn Mun, the old Thai monk that helped start the forest tradition--a very dedicated man doing his utmost to teach the Buddha-Way ("Has anyone ever been ordained in the Buddha's religion without having studied meditation? We can say categorically no — there hasn't." compared to Dogen's Shikantaza is the way of the Buddha Ancestors.")

That's one of the things that drew me to Zen, specifically Soto--there's the fantastical scripture that seems to be the calling card of the Mahayana, but from a practical standpoint "Eyes horizontal, nose vertical" has always seemed to point at the absolute essence of Buddhism (even if I can't always see it clearly; I can at least see that eyes are sometimes clouded).

That having been said, I think that crying over a dead baby, having a former prostitute ordained, mistaking a monk for an old, dead friend; these all do serve to reinforce the point.

And if Dogen was an ordinary man, if the Buddha was an ordinary man, this is possible.

Metta,

Saijun

Edited to change "Ordaining a former prostitute" to "having a former prostitute ordained." Little details, but best to be as accurate as possible, no?

[Hoyu]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Saijun wrote:
ordaining a former prostitute,

Hi All,
The other thing that touched me in the way that Dogen treated Orin was the manner in which he would bow to even a "lowly" prostitute. In Japanese culture there are 3 forms of bow. Shin(formal), Gyo(semiformal), and So(informal). Each bow has its own level of incline, Shin being the lowest(as in height) of the three bows one can make(either standing or sitting). I noticed that throughout the film Dogen used the most formal bow to address everyone from feudal warlords to prostitutes. Very humble of him considering how classist society of the time was! You know your place and bow low to those above, all the while making sure that those below bow lower to you! Since I can't say for sure, I'm going to assume that the "real" Dogen conducted himself similarly. At least I'd like to think so.......

Gassho,
John

[Tb]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Hi.

I love it, but i must say it is much easier to watch and understand with english subtitles... ops:

And, i must say, one of the best lines is when the nun tells the child to hold the hands in another way and the child responds "because its raining"...
That made the whole movie...

Other than that, just a tad to flowery? :lol:

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Hoyu]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

...the hagiographies ...

Today I learned what "hagiography" means

Me too! Thanks Google :lol:

Gassho,
John

[Dosho]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Hi all,

I watched the movie a few weeks ago right after it arrived and have let my thoughts on it percolate in my brain for awhile. I'm going to watch it again this week, possibly with my wife if she's interested, and perhaps my brother who'll be here in about a week since he's very much a fan of Japanese movies and anime. After that I'll offer my impressions, but I did want to say that as someone who once fancied himself as a historian I am often critical of movies that distort facts for the sake of "dramatic effect". I don't have a problem with some of that, like having Orin personify the well known zen story of sending the mother door to door to find mustard seeds from a family untouched by tragedy. However, there are some extreme examples where I think dramatic effect for the average moviegoer takes away from the true story.

A prime example is the movie Schindler's List which portrayed Oskar Schindler as a saintly figure who agonized over his inability to save more Jews during World War II. There is a scene where he is presented with a ring by those he had saved from the Holocaust made from the gold fillings in their teeth, which is absolutely true. However, in the movie Schindler then begins breaking down and says, "I wish I could have done more!" To my knowledge he never broke down in such a fashion and in fact the book the movie is based on begins with a story of how years later Schindler lost the ring in a poker game. Schindler was a dyed in the wool capitalist who saw little value in killing people who could be used as laborers and, in another context, could have been seen much as today's "villianous" corportate bigwigs. I saw an interview with the director, Steven Spielberg, who said that the change made the story better, but to me it moved Schindler from an actual human being with flaws to a superhuman personality.

No doubt Schindler did a remarkable thing, but I wonder in movies like "Zen" if we are offered the best view of historical figures. Biographies and documentaries can be dull and fail to capture the passion of an individual, so movies will always offer the opportunity to bring a character to life. But in general I'll stick to boring over sensationalized accounts and I hope "Zen" has a good balance.

I'll come down off my soapbox now and just try to enjoy the movie!

Gassho,
Dosho

[Hoyu]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Hi Dosho,

You make a valid point here. Which is why I actually prefer documentaries. If I'm going to fill my head with info it might as well be as close to accurate as possible.
What I actually know of Dogen the man is rudimentary at best. I was reminded of that when they played the story of Orin and her baby. I knew that was not accurate which made me wonder how many other things in the film may have been slightly misleading that I missed? It might be worth delving into in our discussions here? If anyone knows of an accurate documentary on Dogens life or could shed more light on things from this film which may missed the mark please feel free to share!

Gassho,
John

[Zen_Fire]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

We can expect Zen to be as biased as any movie made about Jesus Christ. Even a documentary would be biased. Less biased, but biased. Therefore 'Zen' is art, it is just for fun. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as objectivity.

[Tb]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Hi.

even what you see is biased, first interpreted through your eye, then through your brain... :roll:

But yes, you need to take everything you see or hear with a pinch of salt, as some guy said some 2500 years ago...

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Zen_Fire]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Hi.

even what you see is biased, first interpreted through your eye, then through your brain... :roll:

But yes, you need to take everything you see or hear with a pinch of salt, as some guy said some 2500 years ago...

Mtfbwy
Fugen

Agreed. All we think seems to be biased and tainted by picking and choosing. Not knowing what else to choose, Zazen seems to be a good choice, though. Nobody can be blamed for choosing the life raft when a ship is thinking in a storm.

[Jundo]

Re: Film Watching Club - Now Playing: Zen (2009)

Hi,

I combined a couple of suggested names for the film club. How is the "Through Light and Shadows Film Club" ? Sometimes we go "beyond", but also Dogen reminded us that Wisdom-Compassion can shine right through too! I also made a little sub-forum for the film club within the book club area.

May I suggest a couple of future films for the club? They may be a bit hard to find, however, especially with sub-titles.

This film is simply a jewel, well worth the effort to see. There are sub-titled DVDs available from sellers, maybe rental too. JUNDO SAYS: BEYOND 'LIKES AND DISLIKES' ... THIS IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE MOVIES OF ALL TIME!! :

ENLIGHTENMENT GUARANTEED

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http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002CO ... MC0XM7QEGV

http://www.amazon.com/Enlightenment-Gua ... 014&sr=1-2

This next is a good one, very cute/funny too ... I have seen a version somewhere with subtitles ...

FANCY DANCE/Fanshî dansu

Successful punk-rock vocalist Yohei (Motoki) happens to come from a long line of Buddhist priests and is expected to serve a year as a novice monk. He reluctantly submits, shaving the half of his head which wasn't already shaved, and resigns himself to a life of asceticism and discipline in a mountain temple. But he and three fellow novices soon learn that some monks are more equal than others. The gay almoner monk secretly hoards chocolates and the disciplinarian monk likes to don a wig and hit karaoke bars. And then Yohei's girlfriend (Suzuki) shows up. The mix of belly laughs, slapstick, sex jokes and satire pushes towards a predictably serene, spiritual conclusion.

http://www.dvdasian.com/_e/Japan/produc ... 3_DVD_.htm

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Fancy Dance sounds similar to this much more recent film (which I have not seen yet ... I will try this week). I do not think it a remake though on a similar subject, and the new film sounds rather more serious:

ABRAXUS NO MATSURI

Abraxas no Mitsuri (or, Abraxas Festival) is the story of a Zen monk who finds himself torn between the spiritual and secular life. The monk Jonen, played by comedian Suneo Hair, is a one-time punk rock musician turned Buddhist monk with a wife and five-year old son. Based on the novel by Akutagawa award-winning zen monk Genyu Sokyu, the character of Jonen becomes a monk following in the footsteps of his father—a tradition not unfamiliar to Japanese Zen, where temples are often passed down in families from generation to generation. During a career day speech given at a local high school, Jonen suffers a breakdown as he realizes that music is his passion; the episode sends him in to a deep depression. Sympathetic to his crisis, the chief monk encourages Jonen to do a live show. As the show nears, Jonen is faced with several obstacles (including potential alienation from his family).

This film explores themes of familial and cultural expectations and how they fit in with one’s own personal calling. It is currently playing in Japanese theaters and will be a contender in the 2011 Sundance Film Festival. I’ll be looking forward to it!

See a clip here. Because it is at Sundance, there will be a subtitled version:

http://sweepingzen.com/2011/01/04/abrax ... aoki-kato/

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Gassho, Jundo in the Balcony