Of Shikantaza and "Mindfulness"

[Naiko]

Thank you for this teaching, Jundo. And thanks to all who have commented on the post today as it gave me an opportunity to see it. This answers some of my questions. I had been wondering if I should maintain an awareness of my body/sensations as I had been instructed during mindfulness training.
Gassho,
Krista
ST

[Onka]

I was just doing my 2nd zazen sitting for today and I thought of this post. Mainly because I am forever surprised at some of the bollocks that pops into my head while sitting. Today's highlight was an accurate recollection of a discussion that took place 20 odd years ago within an anarchist group I was involved in lol. They come, they go, I just sit haha.

Gassho
Anna

ST/LAH

[Hoseki]

The question comes up from time to time on the differences (and samenesses) between Shikantaza and "mindfulness" meditation.

In part, that depends on how one defines "mindfulness," and the particular way a certain book or teacher presents "mindfulness meditation."

If one means "mindfulness" as being the practice of scanning and labeling thoughts and emotions as they arise, it is a wonderful practice very much for all Buddhists ... but we do not actively engage in such practice during the sitting of Shikantaza Zazen. In Shikantaza, one simply lets thoughts go without identifying and labeling their type, or particularly trying to witness (as found in some kinds of Vipassana meditation) their source of arising. In Shikantaza, one lets thoughts pass without grabbing on or stirring up, perhaps finding that there is also stillness between ... and within ... the thoughts too. At other times in life, it is lovely to become aware of one's thoughts and emotions more, identify them so as not to buy into what they are selling so much. However, not during the sitting of Shikantaza Zazen. (We have a recommended daily practice here at Treeleaf based on such mindfulness of our thoughts and emotions: Nurturing Seeds PRACTICE)

Some types of modern "mindfulness" meditation are closer to such "scanning and labeling," but others are closer in various ways to (and have been influenced to some degree by) Shikantaza/Just Sitting. However. if one is following the breath in order to intentionally "feel peaceful" or to intentionally relax, then that is not really Shikantaza. In Shikantaza, one radically drops all need and intents, even to feel peaceful or relax. The only need and intent is to sit for sitting's sake, with that a complete and fulfilled act in and of itself. (However, strange as it may sound, this very dropping of need and intent ... even to feel peace or relax ... leads to its own profound Peace because that very hunger and need is what causes human beings to feel lack and dis-ease in the first place!)

If one is sitting a kind of mindfulness "letting thoughts go, accepting the moment, no goals or demands" then that is obviously very very Shikantaza-ish! However, even then, what might be missing? I would say that one might still be subtly sitting in order to get that "peace and relaxation" pay-off (which actually robs one of the real treasure). Second, there is a certain power to Shikantaza when one sits as a kind of "sacred act," feeling that one is sitting "the one place to be. and the one action that needs to be done in that momentless moment of sitting in all time and space." One is truly a Buddha sitting sitting Buddha in that instant of sitting. One is sitting as a shining jewel at the center of all reality that is a shining jewel, wherein all things and moments are shining jewels shining in and out of shining jewels. Furthermore, the point of the sitting is not just to feel "peace and relax," but rather, the hard borders that separate onself and the "not myself" world should begin to soften, or even fully drop away, such that one experiences the whole of the universe, and all the things, people and moments of time of the universe, flowing in and out and as each other ... and as you and me too, and you and me just them. Then the true conflict between your "you" and the rest of the world (plus things like birth and death too) drop away as the separation and resulting frictions evaporate. Modern "mindfulness" training sometimes skips around such things, tending to be content with the pay-off of "just feel some peace and relax a bit." That is a shame.

Other important aspects of Buddhist training may be left out, or undervalued, in Mindfulness courses, but they rob this Path of much that is important. As one example, the Precepts on avoiding the taking of life, not being greedy with excess desires, and the like may be undervalued (thus, for example, "mindfulness" courses are sometimes used to train soldiers to be colder killers, and business people to be more efficient and greedier money machines). Other Buddhist teachings, on how the universe is "Empty" and "Impermanent" free of only "individual self" (which is actually also its flowing Wholeness), our lives constantly reborn with every step, and the like may be neglected. As well, the aspects about how we must continue to bring freedom from excess desire, anger and divided thinking off the cushion and out into life, even after Zazen time is over, may be neglected.

Oh, and one more thing: Sometimes folks understand "Mindfulness" to mean learning to do and experience one thing in one moment only, e.g., "when drinking tea, just drink tea; when washing the dishes, just wash the dishes." It is a bit off topic, but I also emphasize to people that such is just a skill that we learn to live sometimes, when appropriate, not as our way to be every waking moment. It would be a bit crazy, and many things would not get done ... it might even be dangerous and deadly ... to try to live such way all the time. Even most Zen monks I know often "multitask" (so I say "when needing to multitask, just multitask ... for that is what is happening in that moment too). One might say that our way is more about allowing the moment to be the moment, even if that moment is sometimes crazy busy or unpleasant sometimes. (I spoke a little more about this difference between being "in the moment" and "allowing the moment to be the moment" in an old post here: Being mindful of 'mindful' )

So, those are some of the potential differences I feel.

Gassho, J

STLah

Hi Jundo,

Can you recommend any resources on scanning and note taking?

Thanks!

Gassho
Sattoday
Hoseki


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[Jundo]

Hi Jundo,

Can you recommend any resources on scanning and note taking?

Thanks!

Gassho
Sattoday
Hoseki


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Hi Hoseki,

I am not sure what you are asking. You mean the way of Vipassana practice I mention in the essay (beyond "Nurturing Seeds")?

Gassho, J

STLah

[Hoseki]

Hi Hoseki,

I am not sure what you are asking. You mean the way of Vipassana practice I mention in the essay (beyond "Nurturing Seeds")?

Gassho, J

STLah

Hi Jundo,

Sorry about that. I’m in the middle of doing an online group session for anxiety. One of the big things that came up was paying attention to thoughts we’re experiencing and then noticing how feelings arise after the thoughts. As well as challenging those thoughts if they were unrealistic. It struck me as very much like the Nurturing Seeds practice. Replacing unhealthy thoughts with healthy (realistic) thoughts.

So I was wondering what types instructions one might be given regarding observing our thoughts and feelings in some of the Buddhist traditions.

As a side note did you write an essay in Beyond Nurturing Seeds? If so I must have missed it.


Thanks,

Gassho
Hoseki
Sattoday



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[Jundo]

Hi Jundo,

Sorry about that. I’m in the middle of doing an online group session for anxiety. One of the big things that came up was paying attention to thoughts we’re experiencing and then noticing how feelings arise after the thoughts. As well as challenging those thoughts if they were unrealistic. It struck me as very much like the Nurturing Seeds practice. Replacing unhealthy thoughts with healthy (realistic) thoughts.

So I was wondering what types instructions one might be given regarding observing our thoughts and feelings in some of the Buddhist traditions.

As a side note did you write an essay in Beyond Nurturing Seeds? If so I must have missed it.


Thanks,

Gassho
Hoseki
Sattoday



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Hi Hoseki,

What you describe strikes me as like "Nurturing Seeds" and a lovely practice too. l would listen to those teachers. l am more the "Shikantaza" fellow. When Shikantaza, just Shikantaza, but then getting up from Shikantaza, it is fine to try some other practices that you find helpful with your anxiety. Do what works! lf labeling and noting is helping, then it has my complete support. But when sitting Shikantaza, just sit Shikantaza during the time of Shikantaza, and be aware how Shikantaza is not that.

As to Nurturing Seeds ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6540-RECOMMENDED-DAILY-Nurturing-Seeds-PRACTICE

Someone also wrote me to ask if l mean the mindfullness meditation is "bad" for everyone. NOT AT ALL! l would rather have people who are suffering with stress or physical pain do that more than nothing at all. lf it helps someone, it has my 1000% support.

l just merely want to point out that Shikantaza is a bit more than "mindfulness." That is all.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tairin]

When Shikantaza, just Shikantaza,

Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Cooperix]

Hello.

Jundo suggested that I post the PM I sent to him concerning this thread, voicing my concerns regarding judging other forms of meditation practices.

Dear Jundo,

I appreciate and enjoyed your post on mindfulness vs. shinkantaza.

Periodically over my years with Treeleaf someone will post a pejorative piece on the mindfulness movement and that has concerned me deeply. (BTW I do not consider your post pejorative). I feel I need to write you a PM. Too long and convoluted to post on the thread.

Many years ago, I read Jon Kabat-Zinn’s book Full Catastrophe Living. He pretty much started the mindfulness movement. The book, which you are probably familiar with, documents his work with Stress Reduction Clinic and the Center for Mindfulness in Medicine, Health Care, and Society at the University of Massachusetts Medical School. I was deeply moved how teaching people to be present for their lives enhanced their health, and in some cases saved their lives. Like any movement the mindfulness movement can be used for unsavory ends (as you note). But basically, I feel that if someone can be present for a cup of tea they might also wake up in a moment of passion and stop themselves from harming another, by words or hand. I applaud any effort for people to stop and witness their breath, their life, their emotions.

I was raised in a religion that taught that it was the ONLY WAY. So, I’m nervous whenever Buddhists talk about our way is the only way. My husband (Dick) and I have both encountered over the years harsh criticism from fundamentalist Buddhists. (He had his phone hacked and email messed with by one such person. And you might remember my art project being attacked in vile and frightening terms. And I will always be grateful to you for coming to my defense.) Just letting you know where I am coming from in this message. I appreciate and have studied the precepts, in fact took them as my wedding vow when we were married 32 years ago. But I also know many folks who abide by these precepts that are not Buddhists. Nor even know what a ‘precept’ is.

As far as I am concerned there is nothing wrong with the mindfulness movement, only good can come from living consciously. If someone wants more, then that’s wonderful. I just do not like the underlying cynicism that our way is the only way. Again, I’ve not heard that from you, but I have from others in the forum over the years. And to be honest it scares me, and it makes me move away from Treeleaf for a bit.

Thank you for letting me get this off my chest!


Gassho
Anne
~lahst~

[Jundo]

Hi Anne.

Thank you, Anne. As in art, one way is not the only way.

As I said above, I do not think that the mindfulness movement is a bad thing for those it helps.

l would rather have people who are suffering with stress or physical pain do that more than nothing at all. lf it helps someone, it has my 1000% support.

l just merely want to point out that Shikantaza is a bit more than "mindfulness." That is all.

I think that mindfulness might help the hearts of many people who benefit from what it offers. However, it is also limited in what it offers.

It is much like the modern yoga movement, which is lovely, helpful and healthful in many ways for many people, but is also quite different from the traditions of yoga in India.

In this Sangha, we practice Shikantaza, and so it is important to make clear to folks how that is a bit more than mindfulness.

Room for all, and I would rather have someone sooth their heart through mindfulness that to suffer more or practice nothing at all.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

PS - I would be hard pressed to believe the story about the "fundamentalist Buddhists," except that I have run into such people myself from time to time (some who became very irate when I wrote somewhere recently my belief that one can practice Zen and Christianity if one's heart is wide to both. Oh, they called me names including "not Buddhist" and "sick" and a devil in robes, Oh well. our "Zen of Everything" podcast next week will be about the sad experience.)

[Kevin M]

Hi Anne,

I like that you raised this in private first and that Jundo encouraged you to take it public. That is a healthy conversation.

In this Sangha, we practice Shikantaza, and so it is important to make clear to folks how that is a bit more than mindfulness.

Hi Jundo,

I thought a lot about your post this last couple of days. I hadn't quite heard that distinction before and it helped bring things into sharper focus for me. I now think I get what "Zazen is life, life is Zazen" means, as (at least this is how I currently see it) fundamentally it's about opening up to all of life in total security, rather than practicing to narrow our focus.

Gassho,
Kevin
Sat

[Hoseki]

Hi folks,

I'm going to chime in again here. I think its helpful to tease out some of the different criticisms of mindfulness. While there are certainly people who feel its not enough but there are always people who say that kind of thing. What is or isn't enough really depends on what one is trying to accomplish. I think that's the kind of criticism Anne mentioned. There is another type of criticism comes from the way mindfulness is being used (or seen to be used) as a means to create more productive workers. While finding work less crappy is a good thing when an employer is doing it to improve the productivity of their workers its exploitative. So that's not a criticism of mindfulness itself so much as how its being used.

At least that's how I see that kind of thing. As for a comparison of Shikantaza and mindfulness as its been popularized (and possible its use before) I think the distinction lays in its radically non-instrumental nature. When someone is practicing mindfulness and are noting there experiences they are doing X to get Y. They are noting their thoughts to be more relaxed. Or like in the example I mentioned earlier about my experience with online counseling I'm noting my thoughts to identify when they are making me anxious so I can challenge them and hopefully lesson my anxiety and replace those thoughts with those that are neutral or reaffirming. But with Shikantaza I'm not trying to do anything. I just have to let things arise and fad away again. Its both the X and Y, the action and the goal are one in the same. It's not a practice that leads to another practice or effect. That's not to say it doesn't have effects its just not really the point.

At least that's how I understand it. If I'm mistaken I would appreciate it if someone would correct me.

Now with all this said I do feel like Shikantaza is something special. I'm not really able to explain it and I don't really think I need to. Sometimes it might be better to not try and look behind the curtain so to speak.

Gassho,

Sattoday
Hoseki

[Jundo]

There is another type of criticism comes from the way mindfulness is being used (or seen to be used) as a means to create more productive workers. While finding work less crappy is a good thing when an employer is doing it to improve the productivity of their workers its exploitative.

Not only that, many employers are offering "mindfulness" classes while otherwise creating inhospitable work environments that are the actual problem. It is a bit like causing employees to be physically injured because of unsafe work conditions in a factory, but offering free bandaids.

At least that's how I see that kind of thing. As for a comparison of Shikantaza and mindfulness as its been popularized (and possible its use before) I think the distinction lays in its radically non-instrumental nature. When someone is practicing mindfulness and are noting there experiences they are doing X to get Y. They are noting their thoughts to be more relaxed. Or like in the example I mentioned earlier about my experience with online counseling I'm noting my thoughts to identify when they are making me anxious so I can challenge them and hopefully lesson my anxiety and replace those thoughts with those that are neutral or reaffirming. But with Shikantaza I'm not trying to do anything. I just have to let things arise and fad away again. Its both the X and Y, the action and the goal are one in the same. It's not a practice that leads to another practice or effect. That's not to say it doesn't have effects its just not really the point.

As I said, and while I am not a mental health professional, the first practice of noting thoughts seems a wise and excellent tool for dealing with something like anxiety. If it is helping, then that is all the evidence one needs. Do that when doing that. Our Nurturing Seeds practice is very much the same.

And I would also say to Just Sit Shikantaza when sitting Shikantaza. As you say, that also is its own very unique way, and offers much to relieve the real route of human suffering. In the times of sitting Shikantaza, just sit Shikantaza. Radically dropping goals, sitting in fullness and equanimity, letting the hard borders of friction and dis-ease between self and the world soften ... this goes to the real root of human angst.

I will sit Metta for your anxiety, Hoseki (by the way, the Metta and Tonglen practices we have around here may also do their part for anxiety and so much more) ...

RECOMMENDED DAILY Metta PRACTICE

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6020-RECOMMENDED-DAILY-Metta-PRACTICE

Tonglen Practice Circle

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?123-Tonglen-Practice-Circle

Even tossing oneself into the ballet dance of Oryoki can bear fruit ...

Oryoki Practice Circle

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?109-Oryoki-Practice-Circle

Just because many of these practices are to be done "without goal" and seeking nothing, that does not mean that nothing is found!

Gassho, J

STLah