Just a little reminder: Shikantaza Zazen is --not-- "Meditating"

[Ryudo]

Shikantaza Zazen is --not-- meditating, nor a matter of posture or time. (Yes, this is the kind of statement about Shikantaza that really bothers folks. Unfortunately, so many people teach it as meditating in a certain posture for a certain time). It is not "meditating" because we sit in RADICAL goallessness in which there is nothing to attain, nothing lacking or more needed, but the sitting of sitting itself. Yes, we let thoughts go, do not grab on or become tangled in thoughts. Yes, a nice balanced posture is best so that we can also forget about the body and just let it go too. However, even if we sit for some minutes ... forget about time too, and let measuring go.

I sit at least once a day and my “Insight” tracker says 893 consecutive days since Feb. 2017...
Yet, I still don’t know if I am doing anything right.
The “Yes, we let thoughts go, do not grab on or become tangled in thoughts.” Is a constant battle for me. If I do not realy concentrate on not getting tangled in thoughts, and I mean “realy concentrate” on noticing thoughts entering my mind to then let them go, I am lost in yet the next thaught... And than I think I should not concentrate on that and than the next thought is there.... and than I let go, and than I try not to concentrate on nothing and than I start thinking about that and than I think I’m useless. And than I think it is all good, and than I still don’t know if I am doing anything right... So I keep trying not trying... Will something happen some day? There seems to be very little progress. Should there be progress?
???
But I keep sitting every single day... Am I stupid?

(And these are my “todays” reflexions. Sometimes it is worse and sometimes I don’t worry so much...)

Gassho/SatToday

[Rob H]

I am still new to sitting.
I've found that I start off very empty of thoughts or at the least, a little 'whisper' here and there. But after about 10 to 15 minutes, I find that thoughts simply pop into my head. I try to just be aware of them so that I don't begin an internal dialog with them, stay clam, keep breathing and do my best to let them melt away by their own volition. By the time I'm done (20 mins), it's started to be a battle with them but I think even though I may never be completely devoid of thoughts, they will lessen as my monkey mind gets tamed...

Gassho.
Rob.

ST

[Horin]

Thank you Roshi for that reminder

I sit at least once a day and my “Insight” tracker says 893 consecutive days since Feb. 2017...
Yet, I still don’t know if I am doing anything right.
The “Yes, we let thoughts go, do not grab on or become tangled in thoughts.” Is a constant battle for me. If I do not realy concentrate on not getting tangled in thoughts, and I mean “realy concentrate” on noticing thoughts entering my mind to then let them go, I am lost in yet the next thaught... And than I think I should not concentrate on that and than the next thought is there.... and than I let go, and than I try not to concentrate on nothing and than I start thinking about that and than I think I’m useless. And than I think it is all good, and than I still don’t know if I am doing anything right... So I keep trying not trying... Will something happen some day? There seems to be very little progress. Should there be progress?
???
But I keep sitting every single day... Am I stupid?

(And these are my “todays” reflexions. Sometimes it is worse and sometimes I don’t worry so much...)

Gassho/SatToday

Hi Ryudo,
you don't know how to do it right, and that's good. In my opinion, the moment we know about doing it right, we compare our experiences. We judge between good and bad, try to archieve anything. I still dont know about right or wrong zazen too. Don't try to possess zazen.. don't make it a method, don't intellectualize it... It will become a dead practice. Every moment, ever sit on the zafu is utterly new, was never there before..how can you know about it? The eternal beginners mind don't know anything. Neither about doing something right nor is it concerned with doing anything wrong.
I got very distracted when I experienced the first satori like states, no mind, bliss... These moments I labeled as right zazen, as attainment... Other moments like thoughts arising and being tired, day dreaming or other common states I labeled as bad... But it's not about the mind state, not about the content or the appearance of this moment. It is the moment itself you encounter and embrace. If there's being concerned about the practice, let there be these thoughts of being concerned...if there's boredom, sit with boredom... If there's absence of thoughts, let there be this state. If you catch yourself in day dreaming, thinking or entanglement, you already returned...just come back to sitting. It doesn't matter at all. it's just the acceptance of what arises...therefore also progress is not relevant. But accepting the things that arise doesn't mean that we deal with the arisings in any way


Gassho
Ben


Stlah


Enviado desde mi PLK-L01 mediante Tapatalk

[Meredith]

Thank you for this reminder. I have been guilty at times of referring to Shikantaza Zazen as “meditation” to friends for convenience sake to avoid their blank looks and sometimes lengthy explanation.

Gassho,
Meredith
_/STLAH\_

[Jundo]

Thank you for this reminder. I have been guilty at times of referring to Shikantaza Zazen as “meditation” to friends for convenience sake to avoid their blank looks and sometimes lengthy explanation.

Gassho,
Meredith
_/STLAH\_

Oh, I just once in awhile say something shocking like "Zazen is not meditation" as a medicine to counter-act the usual idea that Zazen is meditation, i.e., a tool, a means, something with a purpose or goal, be it "enlightenment" or "relaxation" or "insight" or anything in between. Truly, Zazen thoroughly-is-yet-is-thoroughly-beyond all dichotomies such as "meditation vs. not meditation" "Jundo vs. Meredith" "Birth and Death" etc etc.

We sit diligently and alert in radical equanimity with absolutely nothing to attain but the marvel of just sitting itself, sitting for sitting's sake as the one activity required in all of life in that time of sitting. It is not a tool, a key, a means or method, and thus opens the door that does not need opening, fixes all beyond fixing or not fixing in dropping all thought of "broken" or "not broken." It is radical sitting in no need to change. That "no need to change" --is-- a radical change from our usual deluded consciousness which always "needs" and wants to "change" and fix and "bring about" and "relate to" and adjust.

Gassho, J

STLah

PS - I am not a big Alan Watts fan on all things (there were quite a few misunderstandings about Zen in his early writings, back in the 50's), but a nice quote I came across from him yesterday:
=======
“We could say that meditation doesn't have a reason or doesn't have a purpose. In this respect it's unlike almost all other things we do except perhaps making music and dancing. When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point. And exactly the same thing is true in meditation. Meditation is the discovery that the point of life is always arrived at in the immediate moment.”

PPS - Very nice description of Shikantaza from Ben/Hishiryo above.

[Ippo]

Question

Shikantaza Zazen is --not-- meditating, nor a matter of posture or time. (Yes, this is the kind of statement about Shikantaza that really bothers folks. Unfortunately, so many people teach it as meditating in a certain posture for a certain time). It is not "meditating" because we sit in RADICAL goallessness in which there is nothing to attain, nothing lacking or more needed, but the sitting of sitting itself. Yes, we let thoughts go, do not grab on or become tangled in thoughts. Yes, a nice balanced posture is best so that we can also forget about the body and just let it go too. However, even if we sit for some minutes ... forget about time too, and let measuring go.

Why do we sit this way?

Very simple: In the delusion of life, we live always feeling we have to "do" something, that something is missing or needs adding, that we need to ponder and judge, that there are endless goals to obtain, things to fix, people to see and places to be. that time is money and more more more is better than less. Zazen is not that. Zazen is sitting as the one place to be, the one action needed in that time of sitting, nothing lacking and no other place to be or go. It is a "non-tool" for "non-fixing" beyond fixing or not fixing. Zazen is not a matter of time, thus we sit for certain lengths of time. Zazen is the way a Buddha sits sitting Buddha to sit Buddha sitting.

Just a little reminder.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Hey Jundo,

Thanks for the post!

I was wondering, if you can better explain the difference between 'inclusive awareness' non-focus on one thing, no fixation, no goals, just being and 'exclusive awareness' fixed are of focus like breath, nose etc.

I have my own ideas but am looking for a new perspective. I am exercising my beginner mind.

Thanks in advance Jundo,

Gassho,

Brad

Sat Lah

[Shoki]

Oh, I just once in awhile say something shocking like "Zazen is not meditation" as a medicine to counter-act the usual idea that Zazen is meditation, i.e., a tool, a means, something with a purpose or goal, be it "enlightenment" or "relaxation" or "insight" or anything in between. Truly, Zazen thoroughly-is-yet-is-thoroughly-beyond all dichotomies such as "meditation vs. not meditation" "Jundo vs. Meredith" "Birth and Death" etc etc.

We sit diligently and alert in radical equanimity with absolutely nothing to attain but the marvel of just sitting itself, sitting for sitting's sake as the one activity required in all of life in that time of sitting. It is not a tool, a key, a means or method, and thus opens the door that does not need opening, fixes all beyond fixing or not fixing in dropping all thought of "broken" or "not broken." It is radical sitting in no need to change. That "no need to change" --is-- a radical change from our usual deluded consciousness which always "needs" and wants to "change" and fix and "bring about" and "relate to" and adjust.

Gassho, J

STLah

PS - I am not a big Alan Watts fan on all things (there were quite a few misunderstandings about Zen in his early writings, back in the 50's), but a nice quote I came across from him yesterday:
=======
“We could say that meditation doesn't have a reason or doesn't have a purpose. In this respect it's unlike almost all other things we do except perhaps making music and dancing. When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point. And exactly the same thing is true in meditation. Meditation is the discovery that the point of life is always arrived at in the immediate moment.”

PPS - Very nice description of Shikantaza from Ben/Hishiryo above.

Alan Watts has always been kind of hit and miss with me but this analogy about music and dance is a hit. I am now going out to mow the lawn which is not something I enjoy and usually can't wait to get to the end of it. I'll take the above approach and see.

Gassho
STlah
James

[lorax]

- Nothing more is needed.

SAT TODAY

[Meitou]

Thank you for the reminder, I too sometimes use the word meditation for convenience when talking to others, in future I'll try to clarify.
Gassho
Meitou
sattodaylah

[Shinshi]

Jundo, would you say that Shikantaza Zazen is a form of mediation, or something completely different?

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Jundo]

I was wondering, if you can better explain the difference between 'inclusive awareness' non-focus on one thing, no fixation, no goals, just being and 'exclusive awareness' fixed are of focus like breath, nose etc.

I have my own ideas but am looking for a new perspective. I am exercising my beginner mind.

Jundo, would you say that Shikantaza Zazen is a form of mediation, or something completely different?

Hi Brad,

If I understand your question, I believe that "inclusive awareness" is about the same as what is often called "open awareness" ... sitting beyond judgments, in equanimity, letting thoughts go, with the the "object of attention" being no one thing in particular. We sit in such way. However, sometimes folks may follow the breath or bring attention to the posture, the hara (the area below the belly), the palm of the hands or the like. That is helpful for folks, especially newer folks, who need a bit of an anchor because their mind really wanders in thoughts, and they need to build a modicum of attention and settling. When the mind settles a bit, I do advice folks to try moving into "open awareness" when they can, just letting thoughts go without grabbing on, focused on "everything, and nothing in particular" as the object of attention. Even when folks sit following the breath or the like in Shikantaza, we do not overly obsess, do so in a relaxed way, and are not seeking deep concentration states (although they sometimes happen) or special exotic mental states (they do sometimes happen too, but many things happen).

The reason I say that Shikantaza is -not- "meditation is not that, but rather that the sitting itself is the point, the pinnacle, the reason, the goal realized, the Buddha doin' Buddha.

Neither are we just "sittin' there like a bump on a log", just twiddling our thumbs and passing our time.

No, Shikantaza is sincere and alert sitting in which we sit upright in radical equanimity, letting thoughts go, but with the conviction in the bones that this mere act of sitting is a sacred and complete act, the one act to do and one place to be in the whole of time and space in that moment. Just sitting is the cat's meow, the cream in the coffee, with nothing lacking.

Thus, to be technical (and to answer Shinshi), Shikantaza obviously has aspect of meditation (we are sitting in a nice posture, letting thoughts go etc). But it is not meditation too. Meditation-not-meditation perhaps. Obviously we have a goal in sitting, but that goal is to radically drop all goals and needs and feelings of lack, whereby merely sitting with legs crossed (or other nice posture) is the only goal and is fully attained just by doing so, nothing more needed and not one thing lacking. So, non-goal-goals.

Does that make sense ... in a Zenny way? :-)

Gassho, J

STLah

[Ippo]

Thank you

Hi Brad,

If I understand your question, I believe that "inclusive awareness" is about the same as what is often called "open awareness" ... sitting beyond judgments, in equanimity, letting thoughts go, with the the "object of attention" being no one thing in particular. We sit in such way. However, sometimes folks may follow the breath or bring attention to the posture, the hara (the area below the belly), the palm of the hands or the like. That is helpful for folks, especially newer folks, who need a bit of an anchor because their mind really wanders in thoughts, and they need to build a modicum of attention and settling. When the mind settles a bit, I do advice folks to try moving into "open awareness" when they can, just letting thoughts go without grabbing on, focused on "everything, and nothing in particular" as the object of attention. Even when folks sit following the breath or the like in Shikantaza, we do not overly obsess, do so in a relaxed way, and are not seeking deep concentration states (although they sometimes happen) or special exotic mental states (they do sometimes happen too, but many things happen).

The reason I say that Shikantaza is -not- "meditation is not that, but rather that the sitting itself is the point, the pinnacle, the reason, the goal realized, the Buddha doin' Buddha.

Neither are we just "sittin' there like a bump on a log", just twiddling our thumbs and passing our time.

No, Shikantaza is sincere and alert sitting in which we sit upright in radical equanimity, letting thoughts go, but with the conviction in the bones that this mere act of sitting is a sacred and complete act, the one act to do and one place to be in the whole of time and space in that moment. Just sitting is the cat's meow, the cream in the coffee, with nothing lacking.

Thus, to be technical (and to answer Shinshi), Shikantaza obviously has aspect of meditation (we are sitting in a nice posture, letting thoughts go etc). But it is not meditation too. Meditation-not-meditation perhaps. Obviously we have a goal in sitting, but that goal is to radically drop all goals and needs and feelings of lack, whereby merely sitting with legs crossed (or other nice posture) is the only goal and is fully attained just by doing so, nothing more needed and not one thing lacking. So, non-goal-goals.

Does that make sense ... in a Zenny way? :-)

Gassho, J

STLah

Hey Jundo,

Thank you for clarifying this. Yes, it does make sense in a very Zenny way . See you Monday!

Gassho,

Brad

SatToday

[Shinshi]

Hi Brad,

If I understand your question, I believe that "inclusive awareness" is about the same as what is often called "open awareness" ... sitting beyond judgments, in equanimity, letting thoughts go, with the the "object of attention" being no one thing in particular. We sit in such way. However, sometimes folks may follow the breath or bring attention to the posture, the hara (the area below the belly), the palm of the hands or the like. That is helpful for folks, especially newer folks, who need a bit of an anchor because their mind really wanders in thoughts, and they need to build a modicum of attention and settling. When the mind settles a bit, I do advice folks to try moving into "open awareness" when they can, just letting thoughts go without grabbing on, focused on "everything, and nothing in particular" as the object of attention. Even when folks sit following the breath or the like in Shikantaza, we do not overly obsess, do so in a relaxed way, and are not seeking deep concentration states (although they sometimes happen) or special exotic mental states (they do sometimes happen too, but many things happen).

The reason I say that Shikantaza is -not- "meditation is not that, but rather that the sitting itself is the point, the pinnacle, the reason, the goal realized, the Buddha doin' Buddha.

Neither are we just "sittin' there like a bump on a log", just twiddling our thumbs and passing our time.

No, Shikantaza is sincere and alert sitting in which we sit upright in radical equanimity, letting thoughts go, but with the conviction in the bones that this mere act of sitting is a sacred and complete act, the one act to do and one place to be in the whole of time and space in that moment. Just sitting is the cat's meow, the cream in the coffee, with nothing lacking.

Thus, to be technical (and to answer Shinshi), Shikantaza obviously has aspect of meditation (we are sitting in a nice posture, letting thoughts go etc). But it is not meditation too. Meditation-not-meditation perhaps. Obviously we have a goal in sitting, but that goal is to radically drop all goals and needs and feelings of lack, whereby merely sitting with legs crossed (or other nice posture) is the only goal and is fully attained just by doing so, nothing more needed and not one thing lacking. So, non-goal-goals.

Does that make sense ... in a Zenny way? :-)

Gassho, J

STLah

Thank you Jundo. Makes perfect sense - in a Zenny way.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Rich]

Thanks jundo. Here’s a pic I took yesterday of a lotus just sitting [emoji16]


Sat/lah


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[Jundo]

Thanks jundo. Here’s a pic I took yesterday of a lotus just sitting [emoji16]

Thank you Rich. The lotus is --not-- a flower. It is all the Buddhas just blossoming.

Gassho, J

STLah