SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 39982

    SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme

    Really gettin' DOGEN'S WILD SOUND is a lot like gettin' THIS WILD SOUND ...

    (Please give a listen, and keep it playing while you read the rest of this post)

    John Coltrane - My Favorite Things. Live in Antibes, 1965. Trane (sax), McCoy Tyner (p), Jimmy Garrison (b), Evin Jones (d).


    I've described Dogen as a JHANA JAZZ MAN-POET, riffing and free expressing-reexpressing-bending-straightening-unbinding-releasing the 'standard tunes' of the Sutras and Koans. The untrained ear can't make head or tail of it, complex rhythms, notes flying, wild tempo ...

    Above is what John Coltrane did-undid-diddled-redid, for example, with "MY FAVORITE THINGS", that really "squaresville" (though lovely in its own way) tune that you may recall being chirped by Julie Andrews in THE SOUND OF MUSIC (a great story)! For that reason, a familiarity with the original 'standards' of the American songbook helps a lot in getting where Coltrane was coming from and going to here. Likewise, a good grounding in traditional Buddhist, Mahayana and Zen philosophy and perspectives is vital to getting what Dogen is up to. But Dogen, Master of the WordJazz expression of the Wordless, then takes off bending and re-enlivening those "standard tunes" in ways felt in the skin, flesh, bones, and marrow. Dogen, for example, frequently re-wild-ed and bent up passages from the already wild and bent Lotus Sutra into something even more bent-iferous and wildacios! Sometimes with Dogen, one can make out clearly the "original melody" he is working with ... a Sutra passage, a Poem, an Old Koan ... and sometimes barely so, for it is not always the "point" he is trying to make through reasoned words, but "the sound, man, the feeling of the music". Dogen and Coltrane make their own musical expression the same but different from the 'standards' that the playful playing is playing upon ... expressing Timeless Old Truths in ways never expressed before ... making Timeless New Truths in the process ... but one also should not forget that that "standard" tune is in there too, and keeps popping up as the theme

    The Shobogenzo, for example, is a rather thick and thorny maze to most readers. But once Dogen's basic ways of expression are understood, one can read the entirety with a bit more ease ... though never easy, mind you, as Dogen (like Coltrane) may often have sometimes let the notes and feeling lead him where they would, and may not have been always himself quite sure where the music was taking him -- or what he himself "meant"! Nonetheless, each certainly knew what he "meant" cause of the meaning of the feelings felt!

    Below is a passage I read in today's talk from Shobogenzo Bussho, where Dogen is jumping off from some basic Buddhist and Mahayana Teachings and standard Phrases to express the nature of Buddha nature. As part of the Soto Zen Text Project, Prof. Carl Bielefeldt offers some background on a few of these old phrases:

    Sentient beings” (ujō 有情); “the multitude of beings” (gunjō 群生); “multitude of types” (gunrui 群類) [are each terms in Mahayana Buddhism] regularly used as synonyms for “living beings.”

    “Initial being” (shi’u 始有); “original being” (hon’u 本有); “marvelous being” (myō’u 妙有); “conditioned being” (en’u 縁有); “deluded being” (mō’u 妄有) [are a] series of terms expressing modes of existence discussed in Buddhist thought. The first, “initial being,” while not itself particularly common, is here contrasted with the familiar “original being,” a term used to express the fundamental reality from which the phenomenal world emerges. The expression “marvelous being” is probably best known in the phrase “true emptiness and marvelous being” (shinkū myō’u 眞空妙有), where it expresses the ultimate emptiness of phenomena. The term “conditioned being” suggests that which exists as a result of conditions — i.e., the conditioned dharmas of dependent origination (engi 縁起; pratīya-samutpāda); “deluded being” suggests that which exists as a result of deluded thoughts — i.e., the false objects of our misguided discrimination (funbetsu 分別; vikalpa).

    “Mind and object, nature and attribute” (shin kyō shō sō 心境性相): Two standard pairs in Buddhist thought: the mind, or thought (citta), and the objects of thought or of the senses (viṣaya, ālambana); and the nature, or essence (svabhāva), of a thing, and its attributes, or characteristics (lakṣana).

    A hundred pieces” (hyaku zassui 百雜碎): A common Chan idiom for the multiplicity of phenomena.

    “One strip of iron” (ichijō tetsu 一條鐵): A common Chan idiom for the unity of phenomena, as in the saying, “one strip of iron for ten thousand li (wanli yitiao tie 萬里一條鐵).

    “Raising a fist” (nen kentō 拈拳頭): The raising of the fist is a common Chan gesture expressing what is beyond language and discrimination.
    And here is how Dogen plays jumping off from such a foundation ... expressing the profound unity and intimacy of we individual, sometimes deluded Being(s) and All Being and Buddha nature ...

    The Buddha Śākyamuni said, “All living beings in their entirety have the buddha nature. The tathāgata always abides, without any change.” ...

    What is the essential point of the World Honored One’s [the Buddha's] saying, “All living beings in their entirety have the buddha nature”? ... One speaks of “living beings,” or “sentient beings,” or “the multitude of beings,” or “the multitude of types.” The phrase “entirety of being” refers to “living beings,” “the multitude of beings.” That is, the “entirety of being” is the buddha nature; “one entirety” of the “entirety of being” is called “living beings.” At this very moment, the interior and exterior of living beings is the “entirety of being” of the buddha nature. ...

    We should realize that the “being” that is here made the “entirety of being” by the buddha nature is not the being of being and non-being. The “entirety of being” is the word of the buddha, the tongue of the buddha, the eyes of the buddhas and ancestors, the nose of the patch-robed monk. Furthermore, the term “entirety of being” is not initial being, not original being, not marvelous being; how much less is it conditioned being or deluded being. ...

    ... The buddha nature is always the “entirety of being”; for the “entirety of being” is the buddha nature. The “entirety of being” is not “a hundred pieces”; the “entirety of being” is not “one strip of iron.” Since it is “raising a fist,” it is not large or small. Given that we are calling it “buddha nature,” it should not be of equal stature with the nobles; it should not be made of equal stature with the buddha nature.

    A Love Supreme!


    Today’s Sit-A-Long video follows at this link. Remember: recording ends soon after the beginning bells; a sitting time of 15 to 35 minutes is recommended

    Last edited by Jundo; 03-11-2019, 12:37 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Dustin
    Member
    • Aug 2011
    • 62

    #2
    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme

    Thanks Jundo I appreciated this sit-a-long as I am diving into Dogen's work.

    Gassho,
    Dustin
    ?? (Kosan)

    Comment

    • Jinyo
      Member
      • Jan 2012
      • 1957

      #3
      Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme

      Wow!

      Well - I just sat with that and what came up was anxiety! (If I could add a smilie here I would but I still can't get them to work)

      I had to turn Coltrane down - appreciate his innovation - but as with John Cage my ear can't take it. Will my mind be able to take
      Dogan? I haven't even grasped the 'basic rhythms' yet so should I be reading Dogen?

      I'm dipping into Shobogenzo Zuimonki - which is fine - like learning to play a few notes.

      Reading the extract - it reminds me of the style of Heidegger's 'Being and Time' - I once spent a whole term (in a seminar group) just
      teasing out the nuances in the first few pages - attuning the 'ear' and the mind.
      I guess this is what is necessary with Dogan too.

      (I like your little piano - I have one for my grandchildren and I usually put ear plugs in when they're playing it!)

      Gassho

      Willow

      Comment

      • Omoi Otoshi
        Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 801

        #4
        Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme

        Thank you Rev Jundo!
        That was lovely!

        What I like most about Dogen is his skillfulness in speaking to every kind of student with the same words. When I knew nothing about buddhism, I could still find something in them. After having practiced a bit longer new understandings showed up in those same words. And now again, a new layer of meaning! It seems even those who have been studying, practicing for their whole life, can still find new layers to explore. When you first listen to the jazz of Dogen, even though may not have heard that particular song before, you can still enjoy the melody. The more you listen, the more you can appreciate the true artistry.

        Originally posted by Dogen Zenji
        The Buddha ??kyamuni said [in the Mah?-parinirv??a-s?tra], “All living beings in their entirety have the buddha nature. The tath?gata always abides, without any change.” ...

        What is the essential point of the World Honored One’s [the Buddha's] saying, “All living beings in their entirety have the buddha nature”? ... One speaks of “living beings,” or “sentient beings,” or “the multitude of beings,” or “the multitude of types.” The phrase “entirety of being” refers to “living beings,” “the multitude of beings.” That is, the “entirety of being” is the buddha nature; “one entirety” of the “entirety of being” is called “living beings.” At this very moment, the interior and exterior of living beings is the “entirety of being” of the buddha nature. ...

        We should realize that the “being” that is here made the “entirety of being” by the buddha nature is not the being of being and non-being. The “entirety of being” is the word of the buddha, the tongue of the buddha, the eyes of the buddhas and ancestors, the nose of the patch-robed monk. Furthermore, the term “entirety of being” is not initial being, not original being, not marvelous being; how much less is it conditioned being or deluded being. ...

        ... The buddha nature is always the “entirety of being”; for the “entirety of being” is the buddha nature. The “entirety of being” is not “a hundred pieces”; the “entirety of being” is not “one strip of iron.” Since it is “raising a fist,” it is not large or small. Given that we are calling it “buddha nature,” it should not be of equal stature with the nobles; it should not be made of equal stature with the buddha nature.
        This I find to be a great commentary too, on what Dogen is describing (and what the Buddha is describing):
        Originally posted by Taigu
        When shall you wake up to the fact that not a single thing is excluded,
        that nothing and nobody can jump out of the circle of as-it-isness,
        Not even the person you are?
        The whole thing transcends practice and non-practice
        every moment the whole body manifests itself and disappears
        moon whirls and sun spits
        steel and water share the same shadow
        dust and gold the same origin
        throw away this mind
        throw away what throws away too
        eyes not even blinking
        you will hug your beloved
        in the here-now
        your beloved will touch you
        beyond all touch
        for this is you
        but you are not entirely it

        Nothing hidden, take away; added
        two flames meeting
        clouds undone in clouds
        the vast sky in your hand
        mountains-rivers-cities-seas
        in your eyes

        all is well...

        all

        is
        Gassho,
        Pontus
        In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
        you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
        now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
        the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

        Comment

        • Dokan
          Friend of Treeleaf
          • Dec 2010
          • 1222

          #5
          Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme

          Thank you Jundo. I cannot fathom Coltrane's capacity to not pass out. Truly amazing.

          It was also very interesting to see how Dogen used these idioms to expound the Dharma. I think when I've read most of Dogen I've just read it...not actually trying to decipher what Dogen was attempting to say, but rather accepting what I understood. Not sure it makes sense, nor is even sound study methodology...but I'm not planning on taking any tests, that I know of. I've actually developed a fond attachment to Dogen's enigmatic style. I think this only came however after dropping my analytic mind and ceasing my natural attempts to decipher every jot and tittle. However, reading the last line you posted, coupled with the explanations of the idioms, it does help clarify...maybe some day I will do a more thorough study, breaking down the finer points.

          Thanks again,

          Gassho,

          Dokan

          PS - Up on podcast.
          We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.
          ~Anaïs Nin

          Comment

          • Shujin
            Treeleaf Unsui
            • Feb 2010
            • 1066

            #6
            Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme

            Thanks, Jundo. I always love your avant-dharma analogies. I was interested to hear that some of Dogen's idea are counter-Soto, as A Love Supreme was initially hailed by some as jazz blasphemy. Ultimately, as you point out, the message carries beyond the word or note. It is actualization itself.

            gassho,
            Shujin
            Kyōdō Shujin 教道 守仁

            Comment

            • Jiken
              Member
              • Jan 2011
              • 753

              #7
              Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme

              Thanks Jundo. As I listened to Coltrane I recognized some, understood some and could not understand a lot but tried to let all that go and just listen to it as it is. Felt like I was the music when I let it go (I love jazz anyway). Life is jazz. Great talk.

              Comment

              • Risho
                Member
                • May 2010
                • 3179

                #8
                Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme

                Thank you Jundo sensei. I understand now. I'm starting to dig that Coltrane. At first I didn't understand the jazz metaphor; I haven't listened to much. But it's like martial arts or just one's daily job. There comes apoint when one has so integrated the basics that expression becomes spontaneous. That's where what we do becomes an art.

                Like Dokan mentioned, i pride myself on the use of my analytical mind. I've always identified with that facet of myself. When I don't understand something I my ego beats myself up if that makes sense. Pracrice has loosened this identification but it's still there.

                In any case you've gotten me excited about Dogen. Instead of taking it so seriously I'm going to enjoy and let the reading just soak in.

                Gassho,

                Risho
                Email: risho.treeleaf@gmail.com

                Comment

                • Ryumon
                  Member
                  • Apr 2007
                  • 1774

                  #9
                  Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme

                  Not that I disagree, but I'd compare Dogen more to, say, James Joyce, than to Coltrane. I doubt that Dogen improvised; quite the contrary, authors who write with such style are poets, and generally spend a great deal of time refining what they write.

                  Just saying... :-)
                  I know nothing.

                  Comment

                  • Jinyo
                    Member
                    • Jan 2012
                    • 1957

                    #10
                    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme

                    James Joyce came to my mind too.

                    I haven't read Dogen yet - so will have to see.

                    Gassho

                    Willow

                    Comment

                    • Shokai
                      Treeleaf Priest
                      • Mar 2009
                      • 6392

                      #11
                      Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme

                      And the beat goes on ? ? :lol: :lol:

                      Thank you Jundo, your piano is definitely better than my piano :shock: :roll:
                      合掌,生開
                      gassho, Shokai

                      仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

                      "Open to life in a benevolent way"

                      https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

                      Comment

                      • Jinyu
                        Member
                        • May 2009
                        • 768

                        #12
                        Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme

                        Thank you Jundo for your lovely talk!
                        Originally posted by kirkmc
                        Not that I disagree, but I'd compare Dogen more to, say, James Joyce, than to Coltrane. I doubt that Dogen improvised; quite the contrary, authors who write with such style are poets, and generally spend a great deal of time refining what they write.

                        Just saying... :-)
                        Wow... Kirk, I'm not sure about that... I mean some poets do but some just throw their guts on the page and never touch at it anymore.
                        Two different styles and two different ways to point to a simple reality/presence!
                        thank you Kirk!

                        gassho,
                        Jinyu
                        Jinyu aka Luis aka Silly guy from Brussels

                        Comment

                        • Jundo
                          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                          • Apr 2006
                          • 39982

                          #13
                          Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme

                          Originally posted by kirkmc
                          Not that I disagree, but I'd compare Dogen more to, say, James Joyce, than to Coltrane. I doubt that Dogen improvised; quite the contrary, authors who write with such style are poets, and generally spend a great deal of time refining what they write.

                          Just saying... :-)
                          Hi Kirk,

                          That's a good analogy too, and Joyce or T.S. Elliot come to mind. This is also in the "How To Read Dogen" thread ...

                          So, for that reason, it is important to approach Dogen, sometimes, as one would approach T.S. Eliot's The Waste land or James Joyce's Ulysses . Here is what some professor wrote of understanding The Waste Land ...

                          We cannot understand the poem without knowing what it meant to its author, but we must also assume that what the poem meant to its author will not be its meaning. The notes to The Waste Land are, by the logic of Eliot's philosophical critique of interpretation, simply another riddle--and not a separate one to be solved. They are, we might say, the poem's way of treating itself as a reflex, a "something not intended as a sign," a gesture whose full significance it is impossible, by virtue of the nature of gestures, for the gesturer to explain."... The Waste Land appears to be a poem designed to make trouble for the conceptual mechanics not just of ordinary reading (for what poem does not try to disrupt those mechanics?) but of literary reading. For insofar as reading a piece of writing as literature is understood to mean reading it for its style, Eliot's poem eludes a literary grasp.

                          From Discovering Modernism: T.S. Eliot and His Context. Oxford University Press, 1987
                          T.S. Elliot was sometimes quoted as saying that he himself did not know exactly what he "meant" by various passages of that poem.
                          viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2999

                          Writing with ink on rice paper, it is not so clear how much Dogen would draft and redraft. However, beyond question he was a wordsmith who would play with the sound and complex grammatical relationships of his text. Dr. Kim's and Taigen's books are very much about that. (the Shobogenzo actually was written mostly mid-life by Dogen, much of it in the space of a relatively few years, then put down by him after the move to Eihei-ji as he became busy with other forms of teaching and lecture. In his later years, as shown in the Eihei Koroku, he seems to have preferred more traditional styles of zen-talks, though often just as playful).

                          Gassho, J
                          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                          Comment

                          • Ekai
                            Member
                            • Feb 2011
                            • 672

                            #14
                            Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme

                            Thanks for this teaching. I have not read much of Dogen's work but would like to start soon.

                            By the way, The Sound of Music is one of my favorite movies too! When I was kid, I used to watch musicals with my mom and grandmother.

                            Gassho,
                            Ekai/Jodi

                            Comment

                            • Myozan Kodo
                              Friend of Treeleaf
                              • May 2010
                              • 1901

                              #15
                              Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme

                              Svaha!
                              Gassho and thanks
                              ;-)

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