SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

[RichardH]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

There are modern Koans as well...I know Daido Roshi has a Koan collection called, I think, Koans of the way of reality which are 108 koans taken from sutras not traditionally use as koans, and koans that come up from practice in our world now.

Also Zen master Seung Sahn also had some modern koans...like "dropping ashes on the Buddha" koan which was posed to ZM Seung Sahn by one of his students.

"Somebody comes into the Zen Center with a lighted cigarette, walks up to the Buddha-statue, blows smoke in its face and drops ashes on its lap. You are standing there. What can you do?
"This person has understood that nothing is holy or unholy. All things in the universe are one, and that one is himself. So everything is permitted. Ashes are Buddha; Buddha is ashes. The cigarette flicks. The ashes drop.
"But his understanding is only partial. He has not yet understood that all things are just as they are. Holy is holy; unholy is unholy. Ashes are ashes; Buddha is Buddha. He is very attached to emptiness and to his own understanding, and he thinks that all words are useless. So whatever you say to him, however you try to teach him, he will hit you. If you try to teach by hitting him back, he will hit you even harder. (He is very strong.)
"How can you cure his delusion?
"Since you are a Zen student, you are also a Zen teacher. You are walking on the path of the Bodhisattva, whose vow is to save all beings from their suffering. This person is suffering from a mistaken view. You must help him understand the truth: that all things in the universe are just as they are.
"How can you do this?

The mind is always presented with something it thinks it has to figure out. The mind never figures out anything, but it thinks it has to. Koans are the same way. We think we have to figure them out. But there is nothing to figure out.

I remember what Shugen sensei of ZMM said once after a dharma talk..."There are some things in life that can be figured out, but not life itself."

More thoughts....

I'm familiar with both, great..... more!

I practice regularly with the local Kwan Um group, great discipline, little talk. There is something Koan-ish about the usual kwan Um-isms like " Go straight", "Only don't know", "The red floor is red" ( accompanied by a slap on the red Zendo floor).

I could also just be a mugwamp about learning a new idiom and vocabulary to really appreciate traditional Koan study. Looking forward to the book club.

[Kyonin]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

I guess the koans are open for anyone that's up to the challenge to sit with them and try to understand them, regardless of the teacher or even religion.

To say that certain group possess the only way to understand them is pretty narrow. It's like saying that you need to be from Norway to understand Wikipedia.

Thank you for this teaching, Jundo Sensei.

[Shugen]

SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

I could also just be a mugwamp about learning a new idiom and vocabulary to really appreciate traditional Koan study. Looking forward to the book club.

What's a mugwamp?

Ron

[Rich]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

Interesting. And helpful discussion. Let the koan begin.

[RichardH]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

I could also just be a mugwamp about learning a new idiom and vocabulary to really appreciate traditional Koan study. Looking forward to the book club.

What's a mugwamp?

Ron

It allegedly has roots in native american language, but was probably just an invention of 19th century politicians. it means a few things... but in this case it means a petty self declaring authority. It can also mean a ditherer or someone who is skittish around committing.. The word went out of usage at about the same time as "confounded", and "sam hill!" . I tend to conflate it with "swampy" which was the name Martha called George in "Who's afraid of Virginia Wolfe". Words are funny things.. :lol:

[Jundo]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

I could also just be a mugwamp about learning a new idiom and vocabulary to really appreciate traditional Koan study. Looking forward to the book club.

What's a mugwamp?

Ron

It allegedly has roots in native american language, but was probably just an invention of 19th century politicians. it means a few things... but in this case it means a petty self declaring authority. It can also mean a ditherer or someone who is skittish around committing.. The word went out of usage at about the same time as "confounded", and "sam hill!" . I tend to conflate it with "swampy" which was the name Martha called George in "Who's afraid of Virginia Wolfe". Words are funny things.. :lol:

The Koans are filled with so many long lost words and references like Mugwamp ... yet people reading them wonder why they cannot understand. Once, someone could understand. Some things are meant to be wordless because they are 'beyond words' ... but other things in the koans are mysterious simply because the words and references have been forgotten!

I said in my talk that the Koans are ever changing in meaning, and this is true. However, sometimes there was an original intent of the writer, now lost ... as the word 'mugwamp' is now almost lost in our language.

However, there is Loud and Clear Meaning to each of the Koans too.. That is, for example, the Sound of One Hand Clapping, the Sound of that which shines In, Out, Between and Right Through-and-Through each of the Koans. So, maybe we should say that there is sometimes many meanings changing as often as life changes or the speakers and hearers change ... and sometimes no meaning or a lost and forgotten intended meaning ... but also the Meaning Beyond Meanings. All At Once As One.

MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU ....gwamp.

Gassho, J

[Dokan]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

I enjoyed this article on this topic by James Ford:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/monkeymind ... -whom.html

He has some good points and takes a nice middle-way that appeals to me somehow.

Gassho,

Dokan

[Jundo]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

I enjoyed this article on this topic by James Ford:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/monkeymind ... -whom.html

He has some good points and takes a nice middle-way that appeals to me somehow.

Gassho,

Dokan

Hi,

James Ford is Dosho Port's Koan Introspection Zen teacher, so it is not surprising that he would say some of those things just as Dosho ... .

However, I do not feel it is quite so. I responded to James Ford in his comment section ...

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/monkeymind ... mment-2285

Gassho, J

[Dokan]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

Maybe the issue is the other half of the equation...the student.

If the student is expecting a confirmation of understanding of a koan from his teacher and that confirmation is part of a systematic approach used by Rinzai school then maybe the teacher should be qualified in that school's methodology.

However, if the student is studying koans for simply life application and has no interest in being qualified in his/her understanding, then I would imagine that same absence if formal qualification of the teacher is unnecessary.

But then again, what the hell do I know. I'm just happy to be practicing the dharma.

Gassho

Dokan

Sent from my SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

However, if the student is studying koans for simply life application and has no interest in being qualified in his/her understanding, then I would imagine that same absence if formal qualification of the teacher is unnecessary.

I think it is not a matter of one system or another needed to give formal approval to someone's understanding of the Koans, except for institutional reasons (for example, the Rinzai branches in Japan now certify people as "understanding the Koans" left and right mostly to give them the institutional authority to be full priests and inherit their family temple ... not necessarily because there is actually any particular understanding. There may or may not be).

When the student understands the teacher (usually) knows ... and moreover, when the student understands the student knows. Really really knows ...beyond all thought of teacher vs. student. How does the teacher know? Much as a doctor just knows when his patient is healing and feeling right just by observing the student's attitude to life, vigorous actions and healthy complexion (no blood test in Zen, I am afraid!). How does the student know? Much as a patient knows when he is cured of illness and returned to health, his fever broken. One knows. It is not a matter of the ways, methods and interpretations of any one school or lineage within a school.

Gassho, J

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

But then again, what the hell do I know.

Yes.
After we have spent ten or twenty years under a Koan introspection teacher in the Rinzai school, maybe we will know what they are talking about. But Rev Jundo has the authority to speak from the Soto perspective. And as he says, the proof is in the pudding/student.

It is only words, only books, nothing special, nothing holy. Still, powerful tools and these collections of words do have a special place in the Rinzai tradition and we should be respectful toward their practice with Koans. Each and every traditional Koan has presumably led to the enlightenment of one or many Zen students in the past. But they are not the property of the Rinzai tradition. They are also part of Soto Zen.

It's a little like a Judo practitioner telling the Ju jutsu practitioner he's doing it wrong, because the Judoka has been throwing all his life and feels only Judo truly knows throwing. But there is throwing in Ju jutsu too. It isn't as central in Ju jutsu as it is in Judo and the techniques are quite different sometimes, but nobody can say to the Ju jutsuka that he should not use throwing techniques and that the Judo way is the only way. The same principle applies to the Rinzai and Soto sects in Zen I feel.

/Pontus

[Ray]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

I find that koans throw in a computer type bug into my small mind causing it to shut down which is great because it helps me use my big mind

gassho
Ray

[Jinyo]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

I've learnt a lot from this post - being very new to Soto Buddhism.

But being very new to something means we sit at the outer peramiter
for a while and perhaps that's a good place to be at times.

I've learnt a little about the Koans - that there can be two approaches - a formal
'study' - or an introspection study - and that somehow these two approaches seem to
have got snagged up into different 'camps'. This makes me question:

'Do we not bring 'introspection' to study and study to 'introspection'? Is the use of the term
'introspection' being used in a 'special' way here - and is Shikantaza the essential practice
bringing these two approaches together?'

So we have 3 elements - and what puzzles me is why we need to prize them apart or valorize one over the other?

I do understand the arguments being put forward - but having listened and I think understood - the voice with
the less ego attachment (I feel) is Jundo's.

The idea that there is a 'right' answer to a Koan that has to be validated by a 'master interpreter' puzzles me - but like I said I'm very new to this. Hoping the book club will give some clarification and - truthfully - I think the assumption that
students will somehow be led to 'misunderstand' is a bit extreme.

No one has an answer to the 'truth' and hopefully our minds are free enough to respond, accept or reject as feels fit?

[Jundo]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

It's a little like a Judo practitioner telling the Ju jutsu practitioner he's doing it wrong, because the Judoka has been throwing all his life and feels only Judo truly knows throwing. But there is throwing in Ju jutsu too. It isn't as central in Ju jutsu as it is in Judo and the techniques are quite different sometimes, but nobody can say to the Ju jutsuka that he should not use throwing techniques and that the Judo way is the only way. The same principle applies to the Rinzai and Soto sects in Zen I feel.

This reference to another Japanese art is, I feel, right on. There is no right or wrong way to throw or fall, I feel ... so long as the throwing is effective, masterful. The only thing special about the Zen perspective is perhaps that ... as we fall ... there is no "we" or place to fall, No Fall Even As We Fall.

I've learnt a little about the Koans - that there can be two approaches - a formal
'study' - or an introspection study - and that somehow these two approaches seem to
have got snagged up into different 'camps'. This makes me question:

'Do we not bring 'introspection' to study and study to 'introspection'? Is the use of the term
'introspection' being used in a 'special' way here - and is Shikantaza the essential practice
bringing these two approaches together?'

So we have 3 elements - and what puzzles me is why we need to prize them apart or valorize one over the other?

You may have practiced a short time, but this is a wise perspective I feel. I would only disagree that Shikantaza is the necessary bridge (even though I am a Shikantaza teacher). Some folks may find the bridge through Shikantaza, some another way. But, like Judo and Ju-Jitsu, each are marvelous ways to the Falling Without Falling.

Gassho, Judo ... I mean, Jundo

[Shokai]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

And so now, we have come full circle. Perhaps it took a Willow, Omoi Otoshi and Ray to straighten it out; we've lost the macho, bullshit, pissing fight attitude and are telling it the way it is. There is no ownership !! :shock: Koans are there for us all to non-understand in our own way; to break through the intellectual claptrap and get to where the rubber meets the road and then throw it away, with the raft when you reach the other side of the stream. 8) Remembering that none of us gets out alive. :roll:

(and Willow, I trully felt your beginner's mind Thank you _/_)