SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

[Shugen]

SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

Thanks Kojip.

Ron

[Hoyu]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

Deep Gassho to the wisdom all who have posted here! _/_

Jundo Sensei,

Your ability to pierce through matters of time, space, tradition, and other concepts of mind where others may get stuck(or set in their ways) is most beautiful. Your teachings always get down to the fundamental heart of what (I believe) this practice is truly about!

Gassho,
John

[Jundo]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

Jundo Sensei,

Your ability to pierce through matters of time, space, tradition, and other concepts of mind where others may get stuck(or set in their ways) is most beautiful. Your teachings always get down to the fundamental heart of what (I believe) this practice is truly about!

Gassho,
John

My wife does wish I would remember to pick up my socks and underwear and not leave them in the middle of the floor. For a guy good with time, space, tradition and the heart of the matter ... I am a slob with my socks and shorts. Wife Mina often says to me she thought Zen guys would be more mindful, and she should take a photo to post here. ops:

That's the Dirty Socks Koan.

Gassho, J

[Shujin]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

I'm currently wrestling with the Dirty Socks Koan myself. Could you be my koan introspection teacher on this, Jundo? :P

On a slightly more serious note, thank you for undertaking this project. The subject of teachers, certified or otherwise, in koans is a moot point for me. There aren't any who are accessible here. I'm excited for the opportunity to learn.

gassho,
Shujin

[ChrisA]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

Very interesting discussion popped up while I was away!!

Full disclosure: I am pursuing koan study with the aforementioned James Ford roshi and the other teachers in the Boundless Way sangha. Given that context: as I read through this topic, I kept trying to to square people's references to "knowing" and "understanding," and to correct "answers," with my own koan work. Referencing something that one of my teachers, Melissa Blacker roshi, said to me (making me cringe, I'll admit), "We're going for something more intimate here."

It's precisely that elusive intimacy that characterizes my koan study with my teachers. To that end, is anyone else here pursuing koan study with a teacher? (Feel free to define that in whatever way you'd like.) In my case, that means that I devote time throughout my day to Mu (and Mu to me :wink, and bring that engagement into dokusan. I've also been (re)reading the Ford Mu and Loori koan books and listening to some related podcasts (such as this wzen.org dharma talk podcast by Daido Loori Roshi on the “Jiashan Sees the Ferryman” koan). I have found this study invaluable; I am unable to explain what "invaluable" means. Of course, I can't say whether others here would or would not find it valuable, find it invaluable, or even find it.

[Dokan]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

Not formally no. I read them and have listened to Daido Roshi's talks for years...but never really chewed on them and made them part of my practice. Only one that I ever felt a clarity on was from Mumonkan case 29.. Not the Wind. Not the Flag. But nothing I ever worked on with a teacher...other than life.

Gassho

Dokan

Sent from my SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

Full disclosure: I am pursuing koan study

Hi Chris,

Some folks may do so, some may choose not. Some folks in this Sangha may believe in God and be practicing Christians, some not. Some may chant the Enmei Jukku Kannon Gyo, some stay silent. Some folks in our Sangha may be vegetarian, and some not. Some folks may be conservatives or liberals, some not. Many may like baseball or cricket, many not at all. Some people in our Sangha may like chocolate ice cream sundaes, some not.

So long as one is also sitting Shikantaza Zazen each day as the one and only action that one needs to do, or can do, all Time and Space fully Realized in that Timeless moment ... with nothing more to attain, not an item lacking (from God to Chocolate Sauce to Satori) ... then one is practicing what is taught in this Sangha. We ask all our members to do-non-do so diligently, each and every Timeless day. That is the rule around here.

Then, one can be no more intimate with all the Koans, every Chant, surpassing ordinary understanding.

Though there is nothing in need of attaining or change ... not a thing ever lacking ... there may be choices to make, beliefs to hold, preferences and aversions, and targets to pursue ... or not.

This is the Koan of Koans.

Gassho, J

[Myoku]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

Thanks for this talk, Jundo,
very refreshing
_()_
Myoku

[Shokai]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

Jundo;

Full disclosure; I turned the big wheel three times, with all the sutras on it in the pagoda at Narita-san :shock: and even bought a fortune (and tied it to a tree.) Does that count for anything?? :roll:

[Jundo]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

Jundo;

Full disclosure; I turned the big wheel three times, with all the sutras on it in the pagoda at Narita-san :shock: and even bought a fortune (and tied it to a tree.) Does that count for anything?? :roll:

It sure can't hurt!

Did the fortune come true?

Gassho, J

[Shogen]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

Dosho Port, my deep appreciation for your input.
Jundo Cohen, my deep appreciation for your teaching.
So Jundo, when will this group of Shikantaza sitting Treeleafers begin our Koan study? Gassho Shogen

[RichardH]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

Very interesting discussion popped up while I was away!!

Full disclosure: I am pursuing koan study with the aforementioned James Ford roshi and the other teachers in the Boundless Way sangha. Given that context: as I read through this topic, I kept trying to to square people's references to "knowing" and "understanding," and to correct "answers," with my own koan work. Referencing something that one of my teachers, Melissa Blacker roshi, said to me (making me cringe, I'll admit), "We're going for something more intimate here."

It's precisely that elusive intimacy that characterizes my koan study with my teachers. To that end, is anyone else here pursuing koan study with a teacher? (Feel free to define that in whatever way you'd like.) In my case, that means that I devote time throughout my day to Mu (and Mu to me :wink, and bring that engagement into dokusan. I've also been (re)reading the Ford Mu and Loori koan books and listening to some related podcasts (such as this wzen.org dharma talk podcast by Daido Loori Roshi on the “Jiashan Sees the Ferryman” koan). I have found this study invaluable; I am unable to explain what "invaluable" means. Of course, I can't say whether others here would or would not find it valuable, find it invaluable, or even find it.

Once a friend was trying to get me to take up Dzogchen. He gave me symbols and Tibetan characters to place on a wall. These were to become the object of practice. When I asked him what the symbols mean, what they signify, he said it doesn't matter, that they had transformative powers and if I chanted what was suppose to be chanted (not knowing what the chant means either), the practice would be like a depth charge triggering deep awakening. It seemed to work for him. Koans on the other hand aren't like that are they? They are different in that understanding, ordinary comprehension of the meaning of words, is a part of it. Even if it moves on to something more "intimate" (presumably an core-of-the-bones realization of the Koan's meaning and not mere mental understanding)), it starts out with ordinary understanding, no? One...hand....clapping. We need to comprehend the conventional meaning of these words in order to practice with the koan. Without that it might as well be just repeating "mugwamp".

[Omoi Otoshi]

SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

Westerners starting Koan introspection don't know the literal meaning of Mu very well, but are often adviced to chant it like a mantra during Zazen. Sometimes people say the word Mu is so effective precisely because we don't have an understanding of it from before. Nowadays I much prefer the Shikantaza Way of Soto Zen.

/Pontus

PS Mugwamp might be an alternative to Who am I..? DS

[RichardH]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

Westerners starting Koan introspection don't know the literal meaning of Mu very well, but are often adviced to chant it like a mantra during Zazen. Sometimes people say the word Mu is so effective precisely because we don't have an understanding of it from before. Nowadays I much prefer the Shikantaza Way of Soto Zen.

/Pontus

PS Mugwamp might be an alternative to Who am I..? DS

I think Mu can be effective not because of having occult properties, like those attributed to the symbols of his practice by the Dzogchen guy, but because it is a handy object of awareness. Any object of awareness, of any sense function, can work like Mu, gathering everything into one point, one "iron ball" (if that is a proper use of the term). What I do not understand, and this may be a way off, is that if different koans are said to embody different realizations, and koans embody a plurality of realizations, by definition are not those realizations partial? That is a very different practice than just sitting, which not partial.

.......waaaaay overthinking this one. :lol:

[Jinyo]

Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHO OWNS THE KOANS?

Have just read a book by Ruth Fuller Sasaki of a translation of talks Isshu Miura gave (in 1955)
(on the Koans) to the first Zen Institute of America. I was hoping this might prep me for the book club.

It has a good historical introduction - but then I started to get lost because my limited knowledge of doctrine/rituals
made it difficult to follow. There seems to be a process of 'illumination' that starts with hosshin Koans and works through
five levels to Goi kones.

I guess I just go back to it and keep reading - but slightly worried that I'd be better off just sitting Zazen at this stage, and also I
wouldn't know a good text from a bad text on this subject -( but I did enjoy bits of this book)

Any other recommendations appreciated.