Thank you all for your practice. It was lovely sitting with you all.
Please be at peace until we sit again.
Gassho,
Nengyoku
Sat
Please be at peace until we sit again.
Gassho,
Nengyoku
Sat
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Thank you for being the warmth in my world. -
Well, Joan Halifax has responded and, apparently, she created this version with Bernie Glassman Roshi (who also created the interesting melody for our "Indentity of Relative and Absolute Chant" which, truly, is vaguely based on Fiddler on the Roof!
)
Joan writes:
dear jundo,
warm wishes to you.
am not sure of the meaning but i think this is something bernie and i devised years ago.
we also have tonal shifts in other chants: jeweled mirror and identity...
and of course gate of sweet nectar has significant melodic shifts.
as to why, i don't remember...
this doesn't help you much. so sorry...
two hands together,
Rev. Joan Jiko Halifax
Abbot, Upaya Zen Center
We chant that way because, well ... that is the way we chant!
I am sticking with my interpretation:
First, we chant with sincerity and equanimity; Second, we chant we more energy and determination to realize these Vows; Third, we allow the Vows to merge with quiet and stillness.
Gassho, Jundo
STLahALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Aug 26-27 Treeleaf Weekly Zazenkai - MORE Zen can solve ALL your problems! (REALLY!!)
I remember having this very conversation with Sekishi a while ago! Happy to have an answer to the question. My follow-up to that is about the translation used. Is it yours or is it inherited as well?Well, Joan Halifax has responded and, apparently, she created this version with Bernie Glassman Roshi (who also created the interesting melody for our "Indentity of Relative and Absolute Chant" which, truly, is vaguely based on Fiddler on the Roof! )
Joan writes:
We chant that way because, well ... that is the way we chant!
I am sticking with my interpretation:
Gassho, Jundo
STLah
[emoji1374] Sat TodayLast edited by Bion; 08-29-2022, 10:22 AM."Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - HongzhiComment
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[emoji120][emoji120][emoji120]
Stlh
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk鏡道 | Kyodo (Meian) | "Mirror of the Way"
visiting Unsui
Nothing I say is a teaching, it's just my own opinion.Comment
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Wow! What a fantastic discussion. I love hearing all of the different chanting styles.Kelly! You get the prize today for asking a question that, I believe, I have never been asked in 16 years here. I don't know!
It is something that I inherited from my mentor, Rev. Doshin Cantor of the White Plum (who passed this year), as it was the way in his Sangha when I was sitting there.
It reminds me of a true story, when I once asked a priest at Eiheiji's branch temple in Tokyo about why they ring the bells with a certain pattern. (It turned out later that it is because it is timekeeping signals, like European churchbells). But he did not know, so called an older priest who ALSO did not know, but said to me: "We ring the bells that way because ... that is how we ring the bells!" Very Zen!
I note that the Upaya Zen Center, also connected to the White Plum, is similar in style, slightly more forceful on the second verse, a bit quieter on the third. I will write to Joan Halifax and see if she has some background:
Looking at the Japanese Soto style, it seems to be a fairly consistent monotone:
However, there is a Japanese Rinzai way of chanting the Four Vows (the Shigu Seigan Mon / 四弘誓願文) that is so beautiful. You must listen to this, perhaps one of the loveliest chanting styles I know. Perhaps, because the White Plum is a mixed Soto-Rinzai line, it was an attempt to have some feeling of the same musicality.
In the meantime, I will speak from my own heart what it means:
First, we chant with sincerity and equanimity; Second, we chant we more energy and determination to realize these Vows; Third, we allow the Vows to merge with quiet and stillness.
Gassho, Jundo
STLah
The discussion on musical chanting reminds me of this recording of the heart sutra which is absolutely captivating and I listen to it often:
Gassho,
SatLah
KellyChikyō 知鏡
(KellyLM)Comment
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Yes, it is mine ... although not exclusively ... and has much to do with how one reads 無上.
So ... in the last line, I use "unattainable" instead of the "unsurpassable" that seems more common in various English translations. Okumura Roshi, in Living by Vow, seems to say that the actual meaning is something like an enlightenment so "unsurpassable" that we can't get there. I would simply add that, while we keep moving forward even though we cannot "get there", from another wondrous way of seeing, we are ALREADY there and thus never any place to get at all.
Okumura says that the "Four Bodhisattva Vows" are associated with one older way that Buddha's Four Noble Truths were written (from p 16 here):
That older version is ...
Later, a Mahayana twist was put on things. (It is not only a "Zen" Practice, by the way, but most of the other Japanese flavors of Buddhism recite them, as well as Korean and Chinese schools.) The Mahayana versions emphasize that a Bodhisattva vows to do these impossible things but (and this is very important) knowing too that, in Emptiness, there is never any "sentient being" to save from the start, nothing to master or attain.I vow to enable people to be released from the truth of suffering.
I vow to enable people to understand the truth of the origin of suffering.
I vow to enable people to peacefully settle down in the truth of the path leading to the cessation of suffering.
I vow to enable people to enter the cessation of suffering, that is, nirvana.
Realizing such fact of "no sentient beings and nothing to realize" and getting the sentient beings also to realize this "nothing to realize" is precisely how one rescues the sentient beings!!! 
[Although the roots of our current version may stretch back further, it is found in the oldest known version (9th Century CE ?) of one of Zen's most cherished texts, the "Platform Sutra of the Sixth Zen Ancestor" (from page 143 here) ....
Although the chant there does not specifically seem to include the "although numberless/inexhaustable" part of each sentence, it is somewhat implied in the surrounding text, and a later version (13th Century CE?) of the Platform Sutra does contain wording very very close to the modern (page 48 here) ..."Now that you have already taken refuge in the threefold body of
Buddha, I shall expound to you the four great vows. Good friends, recite
in unison what I say: 'I vow to save all sentient beings everywhere.
I vow to cut off all the passions everywhere. I vow to study all the
Buddhist teachings everywhere. I vow to achieve the unsurpassed Buddha
Way.
So, my guess is that, as the Platform Sutra was elaborated in later versions, someone added to the Vows too in order to more clearly reflect the Mahayana/Emptiness aspect.“Good friends, now that we have done the repentances, I will express
for you the four great vows. You should all listen closely: the sentient beings
of our own minds are limitless, and we vow to save them all. The afflictions
of our own minds are limitless, and we vow to eradicate them all. The teachings
of our own minds are inexhaustible, and we vow to learn them all. The
enlightenment of buddhahood of our own minds is unsurpassable, and we
vow to achieve it
As to translators, the original in Chinese is this ...
四宏誓願
眾生無邊誓願度；
煩惱無盡誓願斷；
法門無量誓願學；
佛道無上誓願成
Now, when you are a translator, there is much room for word choice and expression as one seeks to capture the meaning from one language to another. So, here is a list of a whole bunch of translations in English (and some in Hungarian!) ...
Our "Treeleaf Version" is this ...
I took this in homage to my mentor, Doshin Cantor, who uses about this version as part of the White Plum Lineage (Maezumi Roshi's Lineage) to which he belongs. A quick online search shows that Joan Halifax at Upaya Zen Center, also White Plum (who appears earlier in this threadTo save all sentient beings, though beings numberless
To transform all delusions, though delusions inexhaustible
To perceive Reality, though Reality is boundless
To attain the Enlightened Way, a Way non-attainable
), uses about this same phrase:
However, is "Reality" a fair and clear translation of "Dharma Gates" (法門 Homon in the original Chinese)? I feel it is. As Okumura Roshi says in Living By Vow (p. 17), "The original word for 'Dharmas' is homon (Dharma Gate), which means teachings about reality and reality based practice." Tanahashi, in his "Zen Chants" book says:Creations are numberless, we vow to free them.
Delusions are inexhaustible, we vow to transform them.
Reality is Boundless, we vow to perceive it.
The awakened way is unsurpassable, we vow to embody it.
So, I feel that the White Plum/Upaya version "Reality" which we borrowed is actually clearer than the technical "Dharma Gates" term to modern folks maybe.Dharma: A Sanskrit word means "truth," "teaching," "thing," or "phenomenon"
Dharma Gates: Aspects or characteristics of dharma
But what about 無上?? That can mean "nothing higher" or "unsurpassable," but it can also mean "cannot be gotten on, can not be risen above" a road or "Way." So, it is an Enlightened Way that can not be gotten on or attained. This is more in keeping with the earlier lines about how we Vow to do what is impossible to do.
In fact, I stole some of this from Steve Hagen, another Soto teacher (Katagiri Lineage) who has:
Gassho, Jundo
To save all sentient beings, though they are numberless
To end all desiring, though desires are endless (or inexhaustible)
To learn the Dharma, though the Dharma is boundless
To realize the Buddha Way, though it is unattainable
stlahLast edited by Jundo; 08-29-2022, 02:33 PM.ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Thank you for that! I appreciate all the details given here! I will be coming back to this to study it. My doubt has always been why we omit the word “vow” in each of the lines, though I know it is implied.Yes, it is mine ... although not exclusively ... and has much to do with how one reads 無上.
So ... in the last line, I use "unattainable" instead of the "unsurpassable" that seems more common in various English translations. Okumura Roshi, in Living by Vow, seems to say that the actual meaning is something like an enlightenment so "unsurpassable" that we can't get there. I would simply add that, while we keep moving forward even though we cannot "get there", from another wondrous way of seeing, we are ALREADY there and thus never any place to get at all.
Okumura says that the "Four Bodhisattva Vows" are associated with one older way that Buddha's Four Noble Truths were written (from p 16 here):
That older version is ...
Later, a Mahayana twist was put on things. It is not only a "Zen" Practice, but most of the other Japanese flavors of Buddhism recite them, as well as Korean and Chinese schools. The present version emphasize that a Bodhisattva vows to do these impossible things but (and this is very important) knowing too that, in Emptiness, there is never any "sentient being" to save from the start, nothing to master or attain. Realizing such fact of "no sentient beings and nothing to realize" and getting the sentient beings also to realize this "nothing to realize" is precisely how one rescues the sentient beings!!!
[Although the roots of our current version may stretch back further, it is found in the oldest known version (9th Century CE ?) of one of Zen's most cherished texts, the "Platform Sutra of the Sixth Zen Ancestor" (from page 143 here) ....
Although the chant there does not specifically seem to include the "although numberless/inexhaustable" part of each sentence, it is somewhat implied in the surrounding text, and a later version (13th Century CE?) of the Platform Sutra does contain wording very very close to the modern (page 48 here) ...
So, my guess is that, as the Platform Sutra was elaborated in later versions, someone added to the Vows too in order to more clearly reflect the Mahayana/Emptiness aspect.
As to translators, the original in Chinese is this ...
四宏誓願
眾生無邊誓願度；
煩惱無盡誓願斷；
法門無量誓願學；
佛道無上誓願成
Now, when you are a translator, there is much room for word choice and expression as one seeks to capture the meaning from one language to another. So, here is a list of a whole bunch of translations in English (and some in Hungarian!) ...
Our "Treeleaf Version" is this ...
I took this in homage to my mentor, Doshin Cantor, who uses about this version as part of the White Plum Lineage (Maezumi Roshi's Lineage) to which he belongs. A quick online search shows that Joan Halifax at Upaya Zen Center, also White Plum (who appears earlier in this thread ), uses about this same phrase:
However, is "Reality" a fair and clear translation of "Dharma Gates" (法門 Homon in the original Chinese)? I feel it is. As Okumura Roshi says in Living By Vow (p. 17), "The original word for 'Dharmas' is homon (Dharma Gate), which means teachings about reality and reality based practice." Tanahashi, in his "Zen Chants" book says:
So, I feel that the White Plum/Upaya version "Reality" which we borrowed is actually clearer than the technical "Dharma Gates" term to modern folks maybe.
But what about 無上?? That can mean "nothing higher" or "unsurpassable," but it can also mean "cannot be gotten on, can not be risen above" a road or "Way." So, it is an Enlightened Way that can not be gotten on or attained. This is more in keeping with the earlier lines about how we Vow to do what is impossible to do.
In fact, I stole some of this from Steve Hagen, another Soto teacher (Katagiri Lineage) who has:
Gassho, Jundo
stlah
[emoji1374] Sat Today
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk"Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - HongzhiComment
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Beautiful sit! Thank you all!
Gassho
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