Lost in zazen (or, as the pixies would say, "where is my mind")

[Ugrok]

Hey Uggy,

If I may, and please forgive if it seems too blunt, as that is not my intention. It seems from your posts that you are searching to something, that you are never satisfied. How about dropping the search and just sit, just be with whatever arises, either good sensations or bad sensations ... just be! But to also give it a good hearted try, not just sticking a toe for a short while in and again expecting a curtain result.

Shikantaza can be difficult at times, but its beauty is profound and everlasting ... but it takes time, it takes effort. That is really all the advice I can give. Like Jundo has mentioned, if these other styles work for you, then best speak to the teachers who teach them.

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

Hello !

Well, indeed, i'm searching for something, i'm trying to find a way to end suffering. So yes, i do read and explore, maybe too much, hahaha ! I started practicing shikantaza 5 years ago, and i still practice it 3 times a week in a dojo ; i'm not "just dipping a toe". During those 5 years i found some peace, but i also found out that it's really "good for nothing". Let's say that for a while i thought i found out how to live my life peacefully, and nowadays, things are more hectic, and for me this is hard to swallow, i'm doubting, so i go back to searching/studying mode. It's just that i read a lot about zazen, so when i find something that looks interesting, i try it, that's all... Pardon me if this question was out of place, but i thought, maybe wrongly, that Joko being a zen teacher, it seemed that this question could fit in a forum about zazen ; if it's not the case, i deeply apologize and let's end that conversation there - anyway, i won't practice how they teach since i did not like it one bit.

Thanks for the advices !

Gassho,

Uggy,
Sat Today

[Jundo]

Looking for peace is your problem.

The only way to find peace is to stop looking, stop needing "peace", and just rest in circumstances whether they are peaceful or not. Yes, a peace of not needing peace and not always feeling "peaceful".

If you want to feel peaceful more than that, I recommend morphine, at least valium. Of course, that is only a temporary solution.

If you want true abiding peace, you must learn to accept life and be "at peace" with a life and world that is sometimes feeling peaceful but frequently not. Be "at peace" with the fact of sometimes feeling miserable and overwrought! (Yes, a Koan).

With this attitude, you might actually find that it nonetheless makes the "miserable and overwrought" times less "miserable and overwrought" ... even though we are not trying to do so! The "not trying" and "allowing" does the trick. (Weird how that works).

Gassho, J

SatToday

Bodhidharma sits facing the wall. His future successor stands in the snow and presents his severed arm to Bodhidharma. He cries: "My mind is not pacified. Master, pacify my mind."

Bodhidharma says: "If you bring me that mind, I will pacify it for you."

The successor says: "When I search my mind I cannot hold it."

Bodhidharma says: "Then your mind is pacified already."

[Mp]

Looking for peace is your problem.

The only way to find peace is to stop looking, stop needing "peace", and just rest in circumstances whether they are peaceful or not. Yes, a peace of not needing peace and not always feeling "peaceful".

If you want to feel peaceful more than that, I recommend morphine, at least valium. Of course, that is only a temporary solution.

If you want true abiding peace, you must learn to accept life and be "at peace" with a life and world that is sometimes feeling peaceful but frequently not. Be "at peace" with the fact of sometimes feeling miserable and overwrought! (Yes, a Koan).

With this attitude, you might actually find that it nonetheless makes the "miserable and overwrought" times less "miserable and overwrought" ... even though we are not trying to do so! The "not trying" and "allowing" does the trick. (Weird how that works).

Gassho, J

SatToday

Hey Uggy,

Jundo has just said what I was thinking in response to your post, but he has also said it much better then I would have. There are wise teachings in those words he just shared .... sit with them and truly allow them to sink in, thank you Jundo.

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jundo]

PS - Also, Ugrok, check out this post on Shikantaza if you feel something is missing from it ...

WHAT's OFTEN MISSING in SHIKANTAZA EXPLANATIONS ....

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15111-WHAT-s-OFTEN-MISSING-in-SHIKANTAZA-EXPLANATIONS

[Jishin]

IMG_0073.JPG

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

[Jakuden]

I was searching for an image to post on facebook with a link to this discussion, and I came upon this:
brad warner.jpg



Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Jika]

Hi Ugrok,

I'm sorry you are suffering through all of this.

It's a paradox, but I thought I can relate to you - because I can't study.
You said you go into studying mode, and there is so much more to know, always so much more to try.
Very upsetting.
I feel the opposite: I can't study, so I lack all the wisdom of the books, all the experiences of different teachers.
When I listen to a podcast or one of Jundo's talks, I often only realize how much I don't understand, and in these moments I suffer a lot.

But, having no choice, I've decided I can be fine with not knowing.
Sounds a bit stoical, yes.
But are these books about my life?
Do the teachers really know what it's like being me?
They are pointing, in wise, interesting, upsetting, crappy, beautiful ways.

So I guess we share the same burden:
Sitting on our a... and finding our own way.

Deep bows to you, and Metta,
Jika
#satconfusedtoday

PS: nice cartoons and pictures, guys!

[Tai Shi]

Well Uggy

I was just sitting around and my sitting, lots of it, each weekday morning at 6 and Tue Th at 7:30 PM, this all at US Central time, and it is available to anyone with Diazan, well I might have mentioned that this old cow had some trouble, and, well, he said, "Just chew your cud, and sit, and let thoughts pass, and chew your cud, yes that's it just chew your cud, and sit, and chew your cud." So each time I sit Shikantaza, Zazen in every situation, I just chew my cud. So you might try this, I'm trying it, this 65-year-old man-cow.

Tai Shi
std
Gassho

[Kyonin]

The more we look to achieve something in zazen, the more elusive it all gets and we end up chasing our own tail.

In my experience (which is very little) peace and end of suffering are not goals but byproducts of just sitting with discipline and diligence.

Gassho,

Kyonin
SatToday

[Jundo]

Hi Ugrok,

I'm sorry you are suffering through all of this.

It's a paradox, but I thought I can relate to you - because I can't study.
You said you go into studying mode, and there is so much more to know, always so much more to try.
Very upsetting.
I feel the opposite: I can't study, so I lack all the wisdom of the books, all the experiences of different teachers.
When I listen to a podcast or one of Jundo's talks, I often only realize how much I don't understand, and in these moments I suffer a lot.

But, having no choice, I've decided I can be fine with not knowing.
Sounds a bit stoical, yes.
But are these books about my life?
Do the teachers really know what it's like being me?
They are pointing, in wise, interesting, upsetting, crappy, beautiful ways.

So I guess we share the same burden:
Sitting on our a... and finding our own way.

Deep bows to you, and Metta,
Jika
#satconfusedtoday

Fine with not knowing. Lovely!

Well Uggy

I was just sitting around and my sitting, lots of it, each weekday morning at 6 and Tue Th at 7:30 PM, this all at US Central time, and it is available to anyone with Diazan, well I might have mentioned that this old cow had some trouble, and, well, he said, "Just chew your cud, and sit, and let thoughts pass, and chew your cud, yes that's it just chew your cud, and sit, and chew your cud." So each time I sit Shikantaza, Zazen in every situation, I just chew my cud. So you might try this, I'm trying it, this 65-year-old man-cow.

Tai Shi
std
Gassho

Just chew your cud, man-cow. MOOOOO!

Lovely.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jishin]

I was searching for an image to post on facebook with a link to this discussion, and I came upon this:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4149[/ATTACH]



Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

IMG_0074.JPG

[emoji33][emoji4]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Rich]

Buddha or somebody wise said Everything is made by mind alone. So just watch what this mind is making, sometime s it's kinda silly. I think that's why they say attain no mind. Just be here, now. Enjoy the blue sky.

SAT today

SAT today

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[Ugrok]

Thank you all. I think i try to control things too much. I can't really tell if "just sit" is a "do" or a "not do". This morning i saw what i was doing : trying to feel a certain way, trying to actively "be". Then, Dogen's words : let things do you, not the contrary.

There is a part of me that fears letting go and grasps everything it can to prove it exists !

Gassho,
Uggy
Sat today

[Anka]

Thank you all. I think i try to control things too much. I can't really tell if "just sit" is a "do" or a "not do". This morning i saw what i was doing : trying to feel a certain way, trying to actively "be". Then, Dogen's words : let things do you, not the contrary.

There is a part of me that fears letting go and grasps everything it can to prove it exists !

Gassho,
Uggy
Sat today

Hi Uggy,

Control is something I am working on also. I think it is more fear of the unknown then anything else. When we control the situation completely then there is nothing perceived as unknown.

If we remember that good and bad is not true nature of anything then we can deal with the unknown better and react as the moment to moment situation requires.

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