Lost in zazen (or, as the pixies would say, "where is my mind")

[Ugrok]

Hello !

Was reading Ezra Badia's book the other day, along with Joko's books, and they emphasize a lot of "returning to the body", to experiencing, during practice. So naturally, i tried to do it ; i usually practice zazen with just sitting and not trying to do anything special, coming back to the posture and the breathe when i'm lost in thought, but this time i resolved to stay with the body experience at all cost. Let's say it was a really unsettling experience. I don't know if it is because i tried to force my attention to stay stay stay on the body, but i found out that it was very difficult to stay with it : too many sensations, all over the place, and i could not pay attention to "my body" as it is a mix of tons and tons of sensations.

So I ended up very agitated, trying to follow one sensation, then the other, and finally feeling completely lost in the middle of it all, like "damned, where am i, what am i, who am i" in the middle of all this ?

Then, following one sensation only, i could not help but feel that i did not know what i was following, it's a strange thing, you end up not being able to tell when it starts and when it ends and where you are in the middle of all this...

I know, in the zen literature, they say that if you observe too much you get agitated, and if you concentrate too much you get asleep, so the answer might be in a middle ground ?

Any advice ? ("Just relax", i know, hahah, but it sometimes hard when you feel groundless like this)...

Thanks !

Gassho,

Uggy

Sat Today

[Kokuu]

Hi Ugrok

Yes, it is unsettling to find that the body is not a concrete, solid entity and instead a bunch of sensations that interweave, change and do not feel like 'me'.

Whereas shikantaza doesn't specifically emphasise focussing on the body, but opening out to all that is going on, this is no different to what we see in the mind when we start to look - a whole bunch of wandering thoughts that arise and pass, triggering other trains of thought and seemingly random images. However, we are probably more used to the idea that thoughts are not part of us and pretty ephemeral whereas finding the same thing about the body can be more disturbing!

From my own experience I would suggest a few things:

1. Yes, relax a bit more! I am sure you know the story about the Buddha advising Sona the lute player that just as his lute strings worked best if they were not too loose and not too tight, so the same was true of our meditation.

2. Don't just focus on your body but let your attention naturally rest.

3. Know that your thoughts about the body and what it is are just thoughts. Likewise the bodily sensations are not anything that need to be held onto but observed and let pass.


Coming up against groundlessness feels like the rug being repeatedly pulled out from under us! I still find it hard to experience but you do get more used to it. This is our idea of who we are coming up against the reality which is quite different! The more we experience the body as those flows of energy and experience rather than something fixed and solid, the more we adjust our ideas to match and it becomes somewhat less disturbing.

Deep bows for your practice
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Jundo]

Ezra Bayda and some of Joko's students teach various combinations of Soto-Rinzai Zen and Vipassana. I don't teach such way or emphasize that here, so I would suggest you check with them, Uggy.

It should not be an issue in Shikantaza.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Ugrok]

Thanks for the answers !

I just wanted to try what they propose in their books. But yeah, it is not shikantaza, which feels a lot more comfortable to me. So i'll just go back to practicing just sitting as i did before - indeed it was not a problem then. Just wondered if it was something worth exploring or not - but i guess the old rule "if it feels crappy, it's not right" applies here too...

What i noticed is that every practice in which i have to make an effort, or TRY to stay with something in particular, feels very uncomfortable...

Gassho,

Uggy,

Sat today

[Jundo]

Let me just say that I am slowly making my way through a rather dense academic text ...

Asian Traditions of Meditation

http://www.uhpress.hawaii.edu/p-9673-9780824855680.aspx

Meditation has flourished in different parts of the world ever since the foundations of the great civilizations were laid. It played a vital role in the formation of Asian cultures that trace much of their heritage to ancient India and China. This volume brings together for the first time studies of the major traditions of Asian meditation as well as material on scientific approaches to meditation. It delves deeply into the individual traditions while viewing each of them from a global perspective, examining both historical and generic connections between meditative practices from numerous historical periods and different parts of the Eurasian continent. It seeks to identify the cultural and historical peculiarities of Asian schools of meditation while recognizing basic features of meditative practice across cultures, thereby taking the first step toward a framework for the comparative study of meditation.
The book, accessibly written by scholars from several fields, opens with chapters that discuss the definition and classification of meditation. These are followed by contributions on Yoga and Tantra, which are often subsumed under the broad label of Hinduism; Jainism and Sikhism, Indian traditions not usually associated with meditation; Buddhist approaches found in Southeast Asia, Tibet, and China; and the indigenous Chinese traditions, Daoism and Neo-Confucianism. The final chapter explores recent scientific interest in meditation, which, despite its Western orientation, remains almost exclusively concerned with practices of Asian origin.

I do -not- recommend the book to general readers, but let me just say that it truly has made me appreciate both the common ground that Shikantaza shares with many Buddhist and non-Buddhist flavors of meditation (objectless open awareness, for example, leaving aside judgments, allowing thoughts to come and go without becoming tangled), but also what is very very unique and a special wisdom of Shikantaza (the non-seeking non-instrumental quality, all completion and wholeness merely in the act of sitting itself).

No, we don't practice here what you describe, Uggy. You would have to ask one of those teachers.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Jishin]

IMG_0062.JPGIMG_0063.JPG

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

[Hoko]

I'm no expert but I've read these sorts of suggestions too and, like you, I have "returned to the posture" in the same way that I "return to the breath" during zazen. If, for instance, during sitting I am open to "everything at once and nothing in particular" and I become aware that I am slumping or slouching I will straighten up using the old "string through the top of your head into the ceiling" technique. But then that's the end of it. Since shikantaza doesn't involve making any particular thing the object of meditation then the physical sensations of the body are just one skandha, right? But staying with the body at all costs sounds like "counting the breaths"; it's frankly too much work! I'd rather be the whole pie than a slice anyway. 😁

Nothing to do, nowhere to go, everything complete as it is, just this, right here, right now, all of it at once and nothing separated from it. Whether it's a thought, a gurgling stomach, a tingling spine, a numb leg, the cars outside... Aware of it all but pushing none of it away and not grasping at any specific thing. Geez, now I want to go sit! 😁

Gassho,
Hōkō
#SatToday (like literally right now; see you on the flip side)


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[Mp]

Hey Uggy,

If I may, and please forgive if it seems too blunt, as that is not my intention. It seems from your posts that you are searching to something, that you are never satisfied. How about dropping the search and just sit, just be with whatever arises, either good sensations or bad sensations ... just be! But to also give it a good hearted try, not just sticking a toe for a short while in and again expecting a curtain result.

Shikantaza can be difficult at times, but its beauty is profound and everlasting ... but it takes time, it takes effort. That is really all the advice I can give. Like Jundo has mentioned, if these other styles work for you, then best speak to the teachers who teach them.

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jundo]

I'm no expert but I've read these sorts of suggestions too and, like you, I have "returned to the posture" in the same way that I "return to the breath" during zazen. If, for instance, during sitting I am open to "everything at once and nothing in particular" and I become aware that I am slumping or slouching I will straighten up using the old "string through the top of your head into the ceiling" technique. But then that's the end of it. Since shikantaza doesn't involve making any particular thing the object of meditation then the physical sensations of the body are just one skandha, right? But staying with the body at all costs sounds like "counting the breaths"; it's frankly too much work! I'd rather be the whole pie than a slice anyway. ��

Nothing to do, nowhere to go, everything complete as it is, just this, right here, right now, all of it at once and nothing separated from it. Whether it's a thought, a gurgling stomach, a tingling spine, a numb leg, the cars outside... Aware of it all but pushing none of it away and not grasping at any specific thing. Geez, now I want to go sit! ��

Gassho,
Hōkō
#SatToday (like literally right now; see you on the flip side)

Hoko, you express this so much better than I can manage tonight. Yes. Just what the doctor ordered.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Joyo]

Shikantaza can be difficult at times, but its beauty is profound and everlasting ... but it takes time, it takes effort. Gassho
Shingen

s@today

Yes, I would agree with this. Like hiking up a mountain, you don't get to the top right away, and when you do you may fall down and have to hike up again. But if one can relax and accept, that's where the beauty is.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Hoko]

Hoko, you express this so much better than I can manage tonight. Yes. Just what the doctor ordered.

Gassho, J

SatToday

Lol.
Well thank goodness you replied to my comment. I tried to edit it and somehow deleted it. Everything is temporary! 😁

Gassho,
Hōkō
#SatToday

[Jundo]

Lol.
Well thank goodness you replied to my comment. I tried to edit it and somehow deleted it. Everything is temporary! ��

Gassho,
Hōkō
#SatToday

I just put it back. Back from the Void!

[Hoko]

Thank you, Jundo!
🙏🙏🙏

Gassho,
Hōkō
#SatToday

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[Jundo]

Yes, I would agree with this. Like hiking up a mountain, you don't get to the top right away, and when you do you may fall down and have to hike up again. But if one can relax and accept, that's where the beauty is.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

Hi Joyo,

As you have heard me say, every step of this way is the "Top" from the very bottom right to the top. Each step up and down the mountain is a total arrival, each inch cross the finish line, yet we keep pressing forward to live this life (just doing our best to avoid the mud holes and poison ivy).

In fact, while trying to get to the peak of "Buddha Mountain", one might say that we realize that the whole mountain, from base to summit, was Buddha all along, and you and I are the Buddha, and the hike itself is Buddha ... so your climbing the mountain is actually "Buddha Buddha-ing Buddha". All of it is the "Summit".

Even reaching some "peak experience", we do not stay there long, but keep moving. Soon we realize that the whole trek, with sunny weather or rainy, is the point of life.

Something like that.

It is good medicine for this busy, capitalist, competitive world where folks are constantly fighting to be the first to the top ... yet our still rarely satisfied when they get there.

Gassho, J

SatToday