Wearing of lay practictioner robe

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  • Gaman

    Wearing of lay practictioner robe

    Hi,
    This is my first post on the forum. Beware: Rookie question

    I have heard that there are robes for lay practitioners.
    May I ask when exactly you would be wearing a robe as a lay practitioner?
    For example, I am assuming it is only appropriate after the Jukai ceremony.
    And never in public, say, if you'd like to practice walking meditiation around your suburb.
    Am I right in assuming that one can wear a robe if one feels it will help the practice (at home, as part of a morning ritual before sitting, to 'get in the mood' so to speak), but not if it is ego driven (to show off what a good little Buddhist one is).

    It seems, like with so many things Zen, that it is the intention, rather than the outward appearance, that is essential...(Am I on the right track here?)

    If anybody would like to share their robing habits I would like to hear them. (Oops, this was not intended as 'ask the scot what's under the quilt' question. I would simply like to know if you wear them, when and why and how you justify it to yourself that it's not about feeding the ego in some way.)


    Thanks so much,
    Fiona

    SatToday
  • Amelia
    Member
    • Jan 2010
    • 4980

    #2
    The only robe I have is the rakusu, though I am currently working-- very slowly-- on the kesa. I usually only wear it while sitting, or sometimes around the house. I currently don't wear it at all, I'm afraid, as I'm living with relatives who would find it a little odd. If I wished, there would be nothing wrong with wearing it outside. However, the desire to do so hasn't really come up. Most people wouldn't know what it is, and I prefer not to have people wondering what I'm about, or inviting conversation and questions that I might handle clumsily. Therefore, wearing it to boost the ego will never be a problem for me! BUT, as I said, there is nothing wrong with wearing it at any time, except the bathroom and bathing. Wearing the rakusu or kesa is, to me, a reminder to be practicing the precepts, so I try to be mindful of not breaking the precepts while I am wearing it, which is fairly simple.

    If you're referring to the kimono style clothing worn in the zendo, I don't think there'd be anything wrong with that either. It's just a matter of personal comfort.

    Gassho, sat today
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

    Comment

    • Jundo
      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
      • Apr 2006
      • 40760

      #3
      Hi Fiona,

      It is not a 'rookie' question at all.

      First, we need to define terms. First, there is the Kesa (also known as a 'Kasaya') as Nishijima Roshi is wearing int the photo below, which is the large cloth robe that monks wear draped over the left shoulder (but which in our 'Nyoho-e' tradition, a practice of sewing a Kesa of a special pattern here and in many corners of the Soto Zen world, can also be sewn and worn by lay folks).

      As well, there is a Rakusu, which is a little 'bib-like' vestment meant as an abbreviated version of the full Kesa. Sometimes you see folks wearing Rakusu with rings in the Zen world, but the Nyoho-e Rakusu does not have a ring.



      Both the Nyoho-e Kesa and Rakusu can be sewn and worn by someone after they have undertaken Jukai.

      Then, there are what are known as lay "Zen robes" that some folks like to wear, maybe something like in this photo. There is absolutely no requirement to wear those, and one can sit in any loose fitting, comfortable clothing (we usually avoid bright colors and busy patterns, however, preferring dark solid colors, as it is less sensory distracting. Shorts are also frowned upon in many formal groups, and blue jeans are constricting. But, on my own, I often sit in both).



      In this Sangha, we hold the Kesa as precious, a symbol enveloping the whole universe and the Buddha's teachings. However, there is no need for a "lay robe". Nishijima Roshi, who was often seen in both the formal robes of a Soto Zen Priest or in a business suit (with Kesa), honored the Kesa and Rakusu. He would sometimes say that our wearing all the other traditional robes is just dressing up in costume like "old Chinese people from the Tang Dynasty".



      However, on the other "sound of one hand clapping" hand, wearing some special clothing ... just like making a special sacred space in our homes with incense where we sit Zazen ... helps some folks to realize some sacred moment and to step back from the dusty day-to-day world a bit. Some people are helped by that. Other people can find their "sacred space" anywhere in the world, just as some people can find the sacred moment whatever they are wearing. Some folks appreciate the old gear, some folks get hung up on it as if "Zen" requires tatami mats, shoji screens and special decorations (it does not!)

      I put on special robes for our Sangha Zazenkai each month, and in this Sangha we encourage the sewing the Kesa and Rakusu Buddha's robes as a sacred act, a meaningful robe that symbolizes this Way. I wear the "full gear" once in awhile, for our monthly Zazenkai or special events, simply to be respectful of tradition at such times, out of respect for our Ancestors and to mark the moment. Other times (in fact, most days) I sit in a t-shirt and shorts with Rakusu. Many times, on the spur of the moment or away from home, I sit with the "Rakusu" that is only felt in my heart and not seen by the eye.

      I usually do not wear a Rakusu just out in life, at the office or in the grocery (neither did Nishijima). I wear the "invisible" Rakusu in my heart at such times. On the other hand, if there is some event, I sometimes walk around this town in my priest gear, no problem.

      I believe that we can sit anywhere, that all of life is sacred when tasted as such ... that the most ordinary is special ... that there is no sacred space left out. Don't exclude one way or the other, so long as all is held as sacred! One does not need some special robe or any gear to sit Zazen, just (after Jukai) a Rakusu or a Kesa seen or unseen.

      Gassho, J

      SatToday
      Last edited by Jundo; 04-12-2017, 01:24 PM.
      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

      Comment

      • Jishin
        Member
        • Oct 2012
        • 4821

        #4
        IMG_0060.JPG

        I don't wear anything most of the time. I don't think it's that important but that's just me.

        Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

        Comment

        • Jundo
          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
          • Apr 2006
          • 40760

          #5
          Originally posted by Jishin
          [ATTACH]4131[/ATTACH]

          I don't wear anything most of the time. I don't think it's that important but that's just me.

          Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_
          By the way, I guess we should wear CLOTHES, although even that is optional. I sometimes mention the time I was invited to teach at the nudist Zendo in Florida ...

          Skyclad Zendo


          Follow teachings of Toni Packer and Springwater Center. The Skyclad Zendo is a naturist Zen meditation group which follows a non-traditional approach of open inquiry through awareness, mindfulness and attention. We meet every Sunday morning for two hours of zazen au naturel, from 10 A.M. to noon in the yoga room at Paradise Lakes Resort, 2001 Brinson Rd., Lutz, FL 33558-8367. We also offer seven-day silent meditation retreats with various teachers.


          No, I never actually got to go, as things just were left hanging. I woulda gone. They said to just bring my own towel!

          I coulda worn my Rakusu with the --extra-- long straps.

          Gassho, Jundo

          SatToday
          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

          Comment

          • Rich
            Member
            • Apr 2009
            • 2614

            #6
            Originally posted by Jundo
            By the way, I guess we should wear CLOTHES, although even that is optional. I sometimes mention the time I was invited to teach at the nudist Zendo in Florida ...

            Skyclad Zendo


            Follow teachings of Toni Packer and Springwater Center. The Skyclad Zendo is a naturist Zen meditation group which follows a non-traditional approach of open inquiry through awareness, mindfulness and attention. We meet every Sunday morning for two hours of zazen au naturel, from 10 A.M. to noon in the yoga room at Paradise Lakes Resort, 2001 Brinson Rd., Lutz, FL 33558-8367. We also offer seven-day silent meditation retreats with various teachers.


            No, I never actually got to go, as things just were left hanging. I woulda gone. They said to just bring my own towel!

            I coulda worn my Rakusu with the --extra-- long straps. [emoji14]

            Gassho, Jundo

            SatToday
            Have heard of them. About 40 miles from me. Am playing in a hockey tournament next week right near there. Will let you know if I make there. Their location makes sense, there are at least two nudist resorts nearby.

            SAT today

            Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
            _/_
            Rich
            MUHYO
            無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

            https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

            Comment

            • Rich
              Member
              • Apr 2009
              • 2614

              #7
              BTW India has a long history and tradition of naked meditation. Mahavir , one of Buddha's contemporize didn't wear clothes. He was the Mains founder I believe.

              SAT today

              Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
              _/_
              Rich
              MUHYO
              無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

              https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

              Comment

              • Rich
                Member
                • Apr 2009
                • 2614

                #8
                Originally posted by Rich
                BTW India has a long history and tradition of naked meditation. Mahavir , one of Buddha's contemporize didn't wear clothes. He was the Mains founder I believe.

                SAT today

                Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
                The jains. Don't understand why phones change what I type

                Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
                _/_
                Rich
                MUHYO
                無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

                https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

                Comment

                • Jundo
                  Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 40760

                  #9
                  Hi Rich,

                  Nude hockey? Sounds dangerous (and cold!)

                  Yes, when I was in India in November, I had contact with the nude "skyclad" Jain and Hindu priests, and the Jains have their own TV station ...

                  In any case, here is a small sample of the channel. In case you are wondering, it seems 90% (although not completely) free of full nudity, certainly in respect for folks from other religions who may be channel surfing. Not so at live events of course (I did read that the "skyclad" nuns dress). Also, Jain monks are celibate, and required to observe strict chastity and freedom from mental desires.

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUM2...ature=youtu.be
                  Gassho, J

                  SatToday
                  Last edited by Jundo; 04-12-2017, 01:22 PM.
                  ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                  Comment

                  • Rich
                    Member
                    • Apr 2009
                    • 2614

                    #10
                    Nude hockey is too dangerous 🤗🏒

                    SAT today

                    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
                    _/_
                    Rich
                    MUHYO
                    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

                    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

                    Comment

                    • Nengyo
                      Member
                      • May 2012
                      • 668

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Jishin
                      [ATTACH]4131[/ATTACH]

                      I don't wear anything most of the time. I don't think it's that important but that's just me.

                      Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_
                      There are robes for that too!

                      19627543.jpg


                      As far as my personal robe habits go I wear shorts and a tshirt or loose fitting yoga pants and a sweatshirt 99% of the time. I never wear buddhist accouterments outside my house other than perhaps a mala.

                      #sattoday
                      #gassho
                      Last edited by Nengyo; 04-13-2017, 01:12 AM.
                      If I'm already enlightened why the hell is this so hard?

                      Comment

                      • Kokuu
                        Dharma Transmitted Priest
                        • Nov 2012
                        • 6880

                        #12
                        "I sometimes mention the time I was invited to teach at the nudist Zendo in Florida ..."

                        Definitely better in Florida than England or Japan!


                        Gassho
                        Kokuu
                        -sattoday-

                        Comment

                        • Entai
                          Member
                          • Jan 2013
                          • 451

                          #13
                          Hi Fiona,
                          I have lay robes that I occasionally wear for Zazenkai if the mood strikes me. For daily zazen I wear the Rakasu and comfy yoga-style pants. I'm currently sewing the Kesa. The act of sewing has been an incredible teaching for me. Stitch and stitch and stitch (and many interspersed needle jabs). I don't wear any of these when out and about.

                          As for all the nude zazen, hockey and such.... I wouldn't subject anyone to that.

                          Gassho, Entai
                          #SatToday

                          泰 Entai (Bill)
                          "this is not a dress rehearsal"

                          Comment

                          • gilles
                            Member
                            • Jan 2012
                            • 109

                            #14
                            no robe or kilt 4 me

                            Peace
                            Gilles

                            Comment

                            • Onka
                              Member
                              • May 2019
                              • 1576

                              #15
                              Thank you for this information Jundo and thank you for the original post Gaman.

                              Gassho
                              Anna

                              ST
                              穏 On (Calm)
                              火 Ka (Fires)
                              They/She.

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