Sitting in Seriza HURTS!

[Beakon]

Okay, confession time. Who needs a back support to meditate? I always need to lean against a couch or bed to meditate properly. The zafu's at the health food store are expensive, like $35 too expensive for this cashier. I always work up the confidence to get into seiza position then find myself in child's pose laying on the living room floor like I'm praying to Muhammed. Back in 2010, when I began studying Buddhism seriously, there was a man who sat next to me in practice. His posture was so erect on the meditation cushion. Meditating on the zafu's felt uncomfortable, but this man in his late fifities made it look so easy. His chest was like a lions. When I try to meditate on my knees I feel a lot of streinuous muscle pulling action that makes it difficult to focus. I tell myself 'it's okay, follow your meditation training and you can resist the pain'. Plonk! Does anybody have experience with dealing with and overcoming this totally beginner problem?

Correction to Title of Thread: Sitting in Seiza Hurts

[Joyo]

I sit on a blanket with my zafu against the wall supporting the arch of my back. Another blanket could be rolled up to support the back, if a zafu is not available.

You can also try the traditional way of sitting zazen for short time periods and gradually work your way up from there.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Jundo]

Hi Seiza,

As the old joke goes about love making, "If it hurts (for most people ) ... you are doing it wrong!" You are obviously doing something wrong with your "Seiza" (spelling!). I am not sure what is "Seriza" but it sounds serious!

In Western style Seiza, most folks sit on a Zafu placed sideways or on a Seiza Bench. Notice lift and support! Some kind of thin mat or soft cushion to protect the knees.



(the Japanese just do so sitting directly on the backs of their own legs, and I DO NOT recommend that).



Have you tried to manufacture a Seiza bench yourself? It is just some pieces of wood slapped (make sure sturdily!) together .... There are many instructions online, not sure which is best, most comfortable, and safest. Maybe somebody in the Sangha has a recommendation?

https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=how+to+make+a+seiza+bench&gws_rd=cr&ei=CGHkWIzwE4T28AXT-JTgCQ

If good with a needle, can also make a Zafu ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12393-Advice-on-buying-a-zafu&p=129996&viewfull=1#post129996

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

PS - Check out our Treeleaf Guide to Basic Sitting, which has some photos and info on Seiza too.

https://sites.google.com/site/jundotreeleaf/TreeleafBasicZazenInstructions.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1

[Jundo]

PS - I am not an orthopedist (or even sure I am spelling "orthopedist" correctly ), but do you notice the similarity between a good Seiza bench and the angling of one of the ergonomic office chairs that, although looking weird, are actually good back support and quite comfortable once one get used to them ...

[Myogan]

I have found that using a wide kapok zafu sidewise works well but should be placed so that equal pressure is applied between your tailbone and pubic bone. This puts your center of gravity directly over th middle of the zafu. If you find there is too much pressure between your calf and thigh, you need to get more elevation with either a wider or more firmly packed zafu, or placing something under it like folded towels or a buckwheat zafu. Separate your knees until you find the most balanced position.

I once sat seiza without a cushion, and when I stood, all the blood that was compressed out of my legs rushed back and then some. I then became one with the floor.

Gassho
Sat

[Enjaku]

Hi Beakon,
I also get back pain in seiza, more like 'aches' than pains. I sit on a sideways zafu (quite a firm one) with my legs either side and about a fist's width between my knees. I also use a zabuton so I'm not sitting directly on the floor.

I've found working on my core strength has helped (sit-ups, crunches, push-ups). That way your core is better equipped to support your back. I'm not an expert or anything but it seems to have helped : )
Gassho,
Enjaku
Sat

[Seishin]

While I still regularly try to sit Burmese or 1/4 lotus, i usually sit seiza on an 16x8 zafu in its normal zazen position not on its side. What did help to ease both back foot and leg discomfort was to open my knees as wide as possible. This seems to give me a solid foundation but also opens my hara - I found a narrower position restrict "belly breathing". Anyway this works for me but I did spend 22 yes sitting traditional seiza (no pillows) on cold stone dojo floors back in my karateka days.

[Jishin]

Hi Beakon,

I would say the fellow you are talking about sits the wrong way and you sit the right way.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Entai]

Hi. I sit in the seiza position on a zafu turned on its end. I do this on top of a zabuton mat. Any other way and I lose circulation in my legs. I do get some back pain occasionally. One tip I've read that helps me is to place a rolled up towel or pillow on my lap and rest my hands (in zazen mudra) on top. It relieves some of the strain.

Gassho,
Entai
#SatToday

[Mp]

Hey Beckon,

Some good advice here ... Jundo hits the mark, sounds like you might be sitting incorrect. Make some adjustments, find your place, and just sit. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Meian]

Hello Beakon,

I sit differently but I have spine problems and had spine surgery, so I accommodate my physical ailments. I've also mentioned having fibromyalgia, so I adjust my practice as I go. I have tried sitting in the traditional manner but it is far too painful for me and not worth the flares. I also do the "reclining Buddha" pose sometimes when I simply cannot tolerate to sit, which I learned about thanks to my fellow Leafers.

Usually, I sit on my sofa with back support but crossed legs or knees up so I am able to shift around as needed. This works for me to avoid main tender points but I doubt it would work for others.

Gassho
Kim
Sat today

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Get to know your own body, experiment, find the balanced comfortable places. My philosophy is very simple when it comes to sitting posture: If it feels good, it is good. simple as that.

One suggestion that helped me and many folks, remember to use the Zafu, whether in the ordinary way or on its side for Seiza, as a wedge, I tell folks to sit in the forward part of the Zafu, with the spine slightly forward of the centerpoint, to create a small wedge effect (like the wedge support of the wooden Seize bench in the photo above). You can see pictures of this in the Basic Sitting guide I posted.

Sitting too far back on the Zafu puts strain on the back in my experience, but the wedge is good support. Here Muho pf Antaiji and (Somebody else whose name eludes me) are sitting with the nice wedge effect.



Gassho, J

SatToday

[pdharness]

Hi Beakon,
Another prop that you can use to sit seiza is a yoga block on the "medium-setting" or the tallest you can get it with it on its long edge. Use it like using a zafu to sit seiza. Feel free to adjust it or add more blocks or a blanket for comfort. Also, I second the recommendation to do exercises to strengthen your abs, it will take some of the work of supporting your upper body away from your low back muscles.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

[Beakon]

Get to know your own body, experiment, find the balanced comfortable places. My philosophy is very simple when it comes to sitting posture: If it feels good, it is good. simple as that.

One suggestion that helped me and many folks, remember to use the Zafu, whether in the ordinary way or on its side for Seiza, as a wedge, I tell folks to sit in the forward part of the Zafu, with the spine slightly forward of the centerpoint, to create a small wedge effect (like the wedge support of the wooden Seize bench in the photo above). You can see pictures of this in the Basic Sitting guide I posted.

Sitting too far back on the Zafu puts strain on the back in my experience, but the wedge is good support. Here Muho pf Antaiji and (Somebody else whose name eludes me) are sitting with the nice wedge effect.



Gassho, J

SatToday

Thank you, Jundo. I am daydreaming about comissioning a woodworker to make a meditation seat. I tried using a foam roller to substitute for a zafu. It appears to be uncomfortable so I will save up for a zafu.

[Kyonin]

Hi B.

Seiza can indeed hurt because it's not a natural sitting posture for us in this continent. We use chairs since we are babies!

However you can train yourself to gradually achieve it AFTER YEARS of practice. I wrote that in capital letters because one just can go on seiza without proper training and discipline.

What I have been doing is to sit seiza on pillows and gradually have been taking off pillows to lower the height of my butt towards my heels. Yoga helps a lot too. After about 3 years I can hold my seiza for about 8 minutes. I know it's not much, but I began at zero!

Why I want to sit seiza? Because it's a challenge and because when I was young I was able to.

But at the end of the day, if it hurts, listen to your body and stop when you need it.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Satto