Zazen in bed instead of sleeping

[Tairin]

I know there are people here who can not sit and must lay down during their Zazen. This thread isn't about that.

This morning at 5:30 my alarm went off. I must have forgotten that it was the weekend when I went to bed and so set my alarm. Sadly I couldn't fall back to sleep but I also didn't want to get up out of bed because my wife is such a light sleeper I knew I'd disturb her. So I decided to "sit". The room was dark. I did keep my eyes closed. I was laying down under the covers but otherwise tried to keep things consistent with my usual seated Zazen. I was there for about an hour and a half. Watching thoughts come and go. Following my breath. Willing to fall asleep if sleep came. This isn't the first time I've practiced like this I sometimes wake in the middle of the night and have trouble falling back to sleep so I "sit" in bed. Basically Zazen rather than counting sheep (or worse dwelling on thoughts).

I am curious to hear if anyone else does this. I don't see any negative except for the risk that I associate sleep and Zazen.

EDIT. Since it has come up in other's responses, I don't treat this time as replacement for putting time on the cushion. More like the insta-Zazen one would do while waiting in a line or at a doctor office.

Gassho
Warren
Sat today both in bed and later on my Zafu

[Kyousui]

I often have problems with insomnia. When I can't get myself to just lie there and let what happens, happen anymore, I do the same thing. I figure if I go to sleep what is what is and to fight it is unskillful. Have not called it Zazen because I couldn't keep my eyes open for physical reasons. Just called it insomnia time meditation. Maybe the Zen police will chime in to say if it is Zazen or not if eyes are closed

[Jundo]

I am curious to hear if anyone else does this. I don't see any negative except for the risk that I associate sleep and Zazen.

No problem at all, and the real "risk" is dozing off.

I am not sure if most sleeping positions are as balanced as seated Zazen, but if the body feels comfortable and balanced and can be let be, then it is probably fine.

Absent a medical condition requiring one to "sit" in bed all the time, it does not replace seated Zazen, but it is fine. Really, Zazen mind can be brought forth in so many activities, not only the still ones.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Joyo]

I have done this many times. I often have insomnia, so instead of tossing and turning, worrying about how I am going to get through the upcoming day on so little sleep, I lay on my back, and "sit" zazen. Accepting the insomnia, and whatever may come of the day, I either slowly fall asleep, or learn to sit in the stillness and not panic about how I am going to get through a busy day on little sleep.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Seishin]

Not sure that I call it zazen but I do this most nights to help me get off to sleep. I've always suffered with a terrible monkey mind when going to bed and even retirement has not seen it off completely. So I'll get into bed and silently recite Atonement, 4Vows, Metta or my own cur down version. Then I adopt a Shikantaza style of breathing while trying to let the thoughts go. It helps me drift off but does not replace my morning sit. But it helps and I guess its just a mechanism to get my mind to a restful and peaceful place in which sleep will follow. So its more Zzzzzzzzzzzzzazzzzzzzzzzzen.

[Jishin]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

This is a good place to post about traditional Zen's ways of sleep.

It is also a LONG DULL post which you can read in bed, and it will put you right to sleep!!

First, as there is a method for all things in a Soto Zen monastery, there is a requisite procedure and requisite body positions for sleeping (From Dogen's Bendoho):

[After removing Okesa Robe] the monks continue zazen for a while. Slowly and deliberately they unroll their quilts
[and bedding], place their pillows, and lie down when the others do. Do not remain sitting when the other
monks do not, or look around at the assembly. Do not arbitrarily leave your place and go where you should not.
Just to go along with the community and lie down is the correct manner.

(The Sutra of the Three Thousand Deportments says that there are five kinds of manners for lying down. The
first is for your head to be in the direction of the buddha. The second is not to look at the buddha while lying
down. The third is not to stretch out your legs together [rather than keeping them bent]. The fourth is not to lie
down on your back or front. The fifth is not to raise your knees.) Definitely sleep lying on your right side and
not on your left side. When you lie down your head should be towards buddha. Now [in the monks' hall] our
heads are toward the joen*, so our heads are toward Manjushri. Do not sleep lying on your front. Do not raise
both knees and lie on your back. Do not sleep on your back with your legs crossed. Do not stretch out your legs
together. Sleep without taking off your robe. Do not be shamelessly naked as in the manner of those from
outside ways. Do not sleep with your belt untied. Lying down at night, remember the brightness.

The monks will tie themselves into their futon with a strap, like a Burrito, in order to maintain this position.

At time of intensive practice, monks will sit Zazen in place of sleep. It is more a Rinzai Practice on the great push for "Kensho", and the most extreme case I know is the traditional 7 days (!!) without sleep at an annual Sesshin in Korea ...

During yongmaeng chôngjin, the monks in meditation hall do not sleep for seven
straight days, breaking from their practice only for meals. They even skip the
dinner ritual in the main Buddha hall so as to devote themselves completely to their
meditation. In this intensive period, the monks face one another in two separate
rows down the middle of the meditation hall, rather than facing away as they
usually do. ... Otherwise the meditation sessions take place pretty much as
always, with fifty-minute sitting periods followed by ten minutes of walking. ...
Other than its obvious interminableness, the major difference between
yongmaeng chôngjin and regular meditation periods is that the large warning stick
(changgun chukpi) is in use constantly throughout each sitting period....
If the drowsy monk does not react to the guard's presence, the guard taps
him on the shoulder with the stick and gives him one round of blows.

As grueling as yongmaeng chôngjin might seem to the uninitiated, its purpose is
not to torture the monks. Rather it provides an incredibly intense, but still carefully
controlled, environment in which to meditate. The hope is that several days of
sleeplessness will apply enough pressure on the meditators that they will be able to
have a genuine breakthrough into their meditation topics, or hwadu ("critical
phrase" [of a Koan, such as "MU"]). Just before yongmaeng chôngjin begins, the Son master tries to impress
upon the meditators that the only way they will be able to survive the week is to
remain concentrated at all times on their hwadu and to arouse the sensation of
doubt. From my own experience, the sheer enormity of the task of remaining
awake for seven straight days was enough to frighten me into focussing on the
hwadu, as if I were clinging to it for dear life. The instant the mind wavers, you are
bludgeoned by bone-numbing fatigue, so the only hope you have of getting through
the week is to maintain your concentration.
http://www.persee.fr/doc/asie_0766-1...3_num_7_1_1069

Even in Soto monasteries, sometimes folks would sleep in the Lotus Position. In order to accomplish this, they would put a stick under their chin, and loop a rope from the ceiling under their arms. They used a special wooden support called a "Zenpan" to hold the chin up.

"Zenpan" description here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=smNM4ElP3XgC&pg=PA389&lpg=PA389&dq=%22chin+rest%22+zazen&source=bl&ots=ZLtt1aC0fq&sig=iQHgegc98emRx0klcgoLti7d5sc&hl=en&ei=juIyTojFLPHnmAX3gpTxCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22chin%20rest%22%20zazen&f=false

Here is one:



It is very easy to fall asleep during Zazen. Brain waves during Zazen are often in state otherwise found during sleep, or which are similar to brain waves in that peaceful place we encounter right before falling asleep while in bed ...

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3457896

... which is also another reason that we can easily slip over the line into ZZZZZZZZzzzzzz.

But what is my recommendation for sleep time on most days?

I have posted this from time to time on Zazen and sleep (and becoming sleepy during Zazen) ...

The great teacher "Homeless Kodo" Sawaki Roshi said about sleep and Zazen ...

Eat in order to do zazen, sleep in order to do zazen. This means that eating and sleeping are also part of zazen.

In other words, we must be properly fed and rested (not too much, not too little ... ours is the Middle Way) in order to sustain our Practice properly. Get rest.

Of course ... that is if we can. Sometimes, more easily said than done these days. If you do find yourself unavoidably tired (because of your 3 jobs), but also feel your Zazen unavoidable (which it should be most days), follow the words of Uchiyama Roshi ...

Another time you might be tired. Then you have to remind yourself that you are practicing zazen right now, and it is not the time for sleeping. This is correcting your attitude, correcting your posture, really opening the eyes and returning to zazen. This is called “Awakening from dullness and fatigue.”

That is for day to day practice. Find the time which suits you best, morning or evening maybe afternoon, and sit consistently then. Sit with a bit of sleepy Zazen when it happens. If too sleepy, and literally falling of the Zafu, go get some sleep.

If in a Sesshin or other intense retreat, it may be a somewhat different story, and we may wish to push ourselves a bit harder (pushing hard with nothing to attain ... but non-attainng!), Remember the words and actions of Master Dogen's teacher, Master Nyojo (Ryujing)

When staying at Tendo Monastery in China, while the old master Nyojo was abbot there, we sat zazen until about eleven o’clock at night and got up at about half-past two to sit zazen. The abbot sat with the assembly in the sodo, never taking even one night off.

While sitting, many monks fell asleep. The abbot walked around hitting them with his fist or his slipper, scolding them and encouraging them to wake up. If they continued to sleep, he went to the shodo1, rang the bell, and called his attendants to light the candles. On the spur of the moment he would say such things as; “What is the use of sleeping? Why do you gather in a sodo [monk's hall]? Why did you become a monk and enter this monastery?”

One time, his immediate attendant said, “The monks in the sodo are tired and sleepy. They may fall ill or lose their aspiration because of the long hours of sitting. Please shorten the time of zazen.”

Angrily the abbot replied, “We must never do that. People without bodhi-mind who temporarily stay in the sodo would sleep even if we sat for only half an hour or less. Practitioners with bodhi-mind who aspire to practice are happier the longer they are able to sit and therefore, practice much harder. ”
http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/comm...nki/02-25.html

In bed by 11, up for Zazen at 2:30! Rujing seems like a heck of a drill sargent at the Dharma boot camp!

But on most days ... the advise is to get sleep sufficient to allow Zazen. It is best to sit in the mornings upon awakening, or at night just before bed. But you can pick another time when not so tired too. Then, take a bit of the sleepy zazen when it happens. If it's too sleepy go get some sleep and sit on waking. If falling asleep during Zazen (although discouraged), just do that ... I promise not to beat you with my slipper (and hopefully it will not happen most days ... even Jundo falls asleep on the "sit-a-long" now and then, if you look closely! ops: ) .

If you sit Zazen and it is ZZZZzzzzz, just perfectly ZZZZzzzz!

By the way, just adjusting the posture, opening the eyes a bit more and taking some breaths can help. I stretch my neck just a bit when tired during Zazen, and it seems to help ... as if a tiny string running from the top of my head to the ceiling were given a light tug. Or, one can return to following the breath for awhile. Monks in China and Japan have always had a close relationship to tea and caffeine (in moderation!). At more Sesshin I have attended in Japan or the West, tea and coffee (in moderation!) are always somewhere around.

Master Keizan wrote (in his Zazen Yojinki about the year 1400) ...

Although we shouldn’t be too anxious about bodily comforts, inadequate clothing, food and sleep are known as the "three insufficiencies" and will cause our practice to suffer. ...

... If dullness or sleepiness overcome your sitting, move to the body and open the eyes wider, or place attention above the hairline or between your eyebrows. If you are still not fresh, rub the eyes or the body. If that still doesn’t wake you, stand up and walk, always clockwise. Once you’ve gone about a hundred steps you probably won’t be sleepy any longer. The way to walk is to take a half step with each breath. Walk without walking, silent and unmoving.

If you still don’t feel fresh after doing kinhin, wash your eyes and forehead with cold water. Or chant the Three Pure Precepts of the Bodhisattvas. Do something; don’t just fall asleep. You should be aware of the Great Matter of birth and death and the swiftness of impermanence. What are you doing sleeping when your eye of the Way is still clouded? If dullness and sinking arise repeatedly you should chant, "Habituality is deeply rooted and so I am wrapped in dullness. When will dullness disperse? May the compassion of the Buddhas and Ancestors lift this darkness and misery."

A bit of Kinhin, for a few minutes, can be good when very tired.

There was a master who sat with a heavy object on his head, which would fall with a crash whenever he started to doze ... and another who kept jabbing himself with a needle ... but I don't recommend that!

Gassho, and Good Night, Jundo

SatToday

[Kyousui]

Tried to look up more on The Sutra of the Three Thousand Deportments but can't find on the 'net.

[Mp]

Here is a example of that burrito that Jundo was speaking about ... looks kind of cozy!

See at mark 14:17 ...

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jakuden]

Here is a example of that burrito that Jundo was speaking about ... looks kind of cozy!

See at mark 14:17 ...

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

Ha! I could have done that easily in my youth but now it looks painful, at least to stay that way all night! Where is this? It's a good video even without understanding the narrative.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mp]

Where is this? It's a good video even without understanding the narrative.

Hmm, that is a good question, I am not 100% sure which of the Soto monasteries this is ... maybe our Jundo may know. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jundo]

It is Eiheiji Head Monastery.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Mp]

It is Eiheiji Head Monastery.

Gassho, J

SatToday

Thank you JUndo, I knew that, just slipped my mind ... those famous stairs the monks are cleaning and a good give-away. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jishin]

https://youtu.be/PFWKNboUL7Y

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Tairin]

Ha. I am sure we've all had sits where we felt like that kid. I have never fallen over but have definitely caught myself from tipping backwards.

Gassho
Warren
Sat today