The Case Against Empathy

[Tom]

Isn't avoiding burnout or compassion fatigue one of the points of Upekkha? I wonder if there isn't a Pali or old text somewhere that says exactly the same thing as this Yale researcher. Perhaps more learned folk here know of one.
I suppose this story is close"

When her son died just a few years into his life, Kisa Gotami went mad with grief. A wise person saw her condition and told her to find the Buddha, who had the medicine she needed. Kisa Gotami went to the Buddha, and asked him to give her the medicine that would restore her dead child to life. The Buddha told her to go out and find a mustard seed from a house where nobody had died. Kisa Gotami was heartened, and began her search, going door to door. Everyone was willing to give her a mustard seed, but every household she encountered had seen at least one death. She understood why the Buddha had sent her on this quest. She returned to the Buddha, who confirmed what she had realized: "There is no house where death does not come."

Gassho, Tom
sat today.

[Enjaku]

I feel that this is right. The result is not callous neglect, uncaring inaction, but cool and practical understanding and help. Kannon does not drown in the storming seas of suffering in the world, but rises above it all. The helper cares and offer aid, but sees through the chaos in real concern

I find this perspective interesting but two issues arise for me.

Firstly, I think there a danger in assuming a "cool and practical understanding" of a person's situation before connecting with their suffering on an emotional level. For example, if a friend can't afford to provide for his family because he has lost his job, one might offer money or to share one's resources. However, if we are able to "put ourselves in his shoes" (which will involve feeling some of his distress), we may realise that our actions could add to feelings of shame or inadequacy. In this case, supporting him to find his own solution would be more compassionate. I would argue that very often the most wise and compassionate response is to listen empathically and do nothing else.

This brings me to the second issue. Very often in therapy (and in life) a cool and practical understanding of a situation leads one to the realisation that empathic listening is what that person needs. For many people who have been persistently neglected or abused, experience teaches us that they require someone who can tolerate and bear witness to their story. As discussed in another thread, this requires the therapist to hold onto and "contain" someone else's distress while that person processes their experiences. The therapist must then seek support themselves, as holding this distress is both the most valuable and the most challenging aspect of working with trauma.

Interesting topic, thanks everyone.
Gassho,
Enjaku
Sat

[Kyonin]

Hi all,

This is a very timely topic for me. Going to hospices and hospitals to help out and to talk to patients (cancer and diabetes mostly) I have seen two extremes of our human behavior. There are the cold blooded and insensitive medical staff that treat people like merchandise, and there are the young doctors and nurses that get burned out by the suffering.

Maybe empathy fails when the helper grabs onto suffering and allows the emotions to take control. This not only applies to doctors but to all of us. One must try to remain calm but always willing to to what's best for the person in need.

In my local zazen group there is a young doctor, Paula. She is starting her career and came to the group because she had read somewhere that meditation would help dealing with stress. She began sitting with us a few months ago and reports that she has been working better and more focused. Also, even if sometimes her heart breaks, she can remain in control of herself to be of better service.

The middle way is always the way, specially for whom works with people in pain.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Jundo]

I think meditation has a role to play in the development of this sort of balance and management of emotion.

Hi Peter,

I believe that we are all speaking of the same basic thing, although using different words. There is some approach to empathy that is sensitive to the sufferer, but which remains balanced, wise and does not fall into extremes. It is necessary to remain somewhat cool to the ignorance that often plagues human beings even as we seek to aid their suffering.

But I'm curious what everyone thinks about how helpful shikantaza specifically might be? In other traditions, there are meditation techniques which focus on imagining difficult situations and practicing the avoidance of reactivity. These seem to me to be well placed to combat the effects of empathy as the author in the interview appeared to define it. Does shikantaza present the same level of training here?

Can you give me a specific example of such an imaging meditation technique regarding the avoidance of reactivity?

I would say that Shikantaza is such an approach of equanimity and "avoidance of reactivity" in the face of all the world, like a clear mirror which takes in whatever appears within. I am curious as to what you have in mind, and then I can say more.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[alan.r]

I'm a little late to this thread, but I'd read this story before, and I think it's a matter of how empathetic one already is. The problem, to my mind, is this: a lot of people aren't very empathetic. But, they're not the aloof caring Buddha, either. In other words, they're not empathetic and they're not compassionate. In other words again, in all likelihood, to be a compassionate person, one first has to be empathetic. This is why empathy as an idea in our culture has gained some traction lately - there are whole swaths of population that don't even really attempt it. That being said, most of us who read and maybe are a bit more privileged and are, specifically, on this path understand that empathy doesn't mean that one needs to feel the pain of all beings at all times. That would be exhausting and you'd get nothing done. But without some stable base of empathy, I don't think real compassion exists. So, to me this is all about balance and moderation. One sits in Shikantaza and goes inward (and outward, not two) - this is being one alone on the cushion. Yes, the entire universe is there, but you're not trying to actively help other beings at this moment. You're just sitting. When out the world, we have to use our empathy skillfully, and I'd say the skillful use of empathy is compassion.

I also feel that if one is getting "burned out" on empathy then that's not really empathy. That's a person making others' suffering about the self in some way. That's me understanding and feeling some of another's pain and going "Oh, god, what can I do, why I can't I help, I feel just what this other person feels and it breaks my heart" and etc, etc. That's a sort of superficial empathy - it makes another's pain about oneself. Real empathy, to me, can only lead to compassion and care, not making the other's pain about oneself.

To me, part of the argument he's making is being made in order to be controversial. The title is "The Case Against Empathy" (these "The Case Against...." titles are wildly popular right now as signaling some controversial (though typically moralistic) viewpoint). My simple feeling is this: he's really saying "don't overdo" empathy and do it skillfully. But that doesn't make for a very "controversial" seeming article. There's a lot of semantic and rhetorical posturing here, in my opinion. Also, this: if a young doctor quits early in her doctoring is that really because she's too empathetic? I wonder if that's a bit too reductive. On the flip side of this, I've known doctors that were so aloof that my wife was mis-diagnosed and almost given some medicine she was allergic too even though she'd told him she was allergic to it and another instance of a doctor nearly giving our baby the exact same vaccine he'd given her not a month before. So, sure, we should moderate empathy and not wear ourselves out, but to this little mind, many folks are going through the world as though other people are barely there.

Gassho,
Alan
sat today

[Joyo]

I agree with you, Alan. I've also noticed that our culture seems to have very little empathy or compassion. Of course, there's always the exception to the rule, but the majority are this way.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Jakuden]

Hi Peter,

I believe that we are all speaking of the same basic thing, although using different words. There is some approach to empathy that is sensitive to the sufferer, but which remains balanced, wise and does not fall into extremes. It is necessary to remain somewhat cool to the ignorance that often plagues human beings even as we seek to aid their suffering.



Can you give me a specific example of such an imaging meditation technique regarding the avoidance of reactivity?

I would say that Shikantaza is such an approach of equanimity and "avoidance of reactivity" in the face of all the world, like a clear mirror which takes in whatever appears within. I am curious as to what you have in mind, and then I can say more.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

I was actually having a conversation with my Ango partner about this... I had an extremely stressful day at work last week, meaning deceased patients (some expected, some not), a lot of bad news delivered, grieving clients (including a dear elderly client who lost her only friend) and a lot of complicated medical scenarios to sort out and explain. Knowing I would sit with all of it later, I was able to focus completely on those around me who needed my help all day and truly be there for them 100%.

Without practice, this day would have taken weeks if not months to process, taking my energies away from everything else. Shikantaza helped me move on almost immediately... although I am still not totally recovered, I am aware of what my mind is processing and have faith that it will soon heal just fine. I also have had expressions of gratitude from almost everyone involved that day, letting me know that we are all going forth together in this.

In the beginning I sometimes questioned my career choice after days like this, and I had a classmate who did change careers altogether (after 8 years of college, she decided to go into construction!) I know there will be others, and I won't have any clue when they are coming. But practice has at least given me some badly needed tools to cope with them when they do come.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Mp]

Without practice, this day would have taken weeks if not months to process, taking my energies away from everything else. Shikantaza helped me move on almost immediately... although I am still not totally recovered, I am aware of what my mind is processing and have faith that it will soon heal just fine. I also have had expressions of gratitude from almost everyone involved that day, letting me know that we are all going forth together in this.

Yes, I know that experience. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[RichardH]

This question was something I wrestled with, because there can be a kind of benign sociopathic model of Buddhahood. Does the case against empathy leave room for us to be deeply affected when our own goose gets cooked, but not by the suffering of another, except for a safe, insulated, caring? It seems so. I don't have answers but am skeptical of the case against empathy.

There are things that happen that penetrate and move more and less deeply, and that is all I know. A love that is insulated makes sense for a social worker, but it is pathological in a parent toward a child. What a parent can do is reflect, man-up, or woman-up, and function effectively because it is necessary, because it is done. If you are practitioner then you are able to not pour fuel on it, or indulge it, but to be inulated from feeling it in the first place, is a poverty stricken approach. Somehow emotion isn't just binary, where you are either feeling it or not. The cool "detached" model was what I rejected when time came to embrace a Mahayana Way. Again I don't have answers, but my gut says it isn't in a case against empathy.

Gassho
Daizan

Sat today

[fudoushin91]

I work in long term care here in the States as an LPN. This excerpt perfectly illustrates why it could be nurses get burnt out so frequently, especially the ones who care wholeheartedly.

Thank you for sharing Jundo.

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[Getchi]

Great article, and I always love reading Ricard!

Im stay-at-home-Dad and my wife was a Nurse. She suffers anxiety and PTSD, both of which were actually made much worse not by her position as carer, but by the demands placed on her as a course of her work. Examples include being given too many patients to feel like she engaged with any of them as humans, and being called after shifts and being told is she doesnt come in, the old folk may not get dinner or a bath.

I saw that this happened because too many of the people in charge were currently burning-out or distanced from there own pain. Ignoring a broken heart doesnt heal it, and we all know thats what keeps us practicing.

Myself, it would be impossible to be myself in the midst of illness,disability and the stress that comes from it. Add two school kids and we all know what that stress feels like. I was doing it very tough, but remembering I am not the only one suffering, that many human have gone before us and that many more will follow after makes it all just a bit better.

Shikantaza allows the space to accept our arguments and my wifes yelling as the voice of pain,insecurity and fear; also tha it was better for it to be done as we can then both move on together. If I took it all too personally I would be a wreck LOL.



TLDR; Universal Compassion is a Universal State conjured within the Mind-Self of this very Body and able to beexercised and strengened. Not entering the water, it remains unspoiled. Empathy is a recreation of anothers apparent emotional state within ourself; literally making ourselves feel sick, fearfull, broken but without an ability to regulate it or see tha we are not just it.


Heres a link tha Ithink demonstarttes it. Everyone will "feel" a certain emotion; but no two of us will feel just exactly the same mix; perhaps Compassion is the wisdom of acknowledging that suffering is not very effective as change.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-27/prison-baby-motherhood-on-the-inside-tarrengower/8272772

Gassho,
Geoff.

Sat2Day

[Jundo]

I'm a little late to this thread, but I'd read this story before, and I think it's a matter of how empathetic one already is. The problem, to my mind, is this: a lot of people aren't very empathetic. But, they're not the aloof caring Buddha, either. In other words, they're not empathetic and they're not compassionate. In other words again, in all likelihood, to be a compassionate person, one first has to be empathetic. This is why empathy as an idea in our culture has gained some traction lately - there are whole swaths of population that don't even really attempt it. That being said, most of us who read and maybe are a bit more privileged and are, specifically, on this path understand that empathy doesn't mean that one needs to feel the pain of all beings at all times. That would be exhausting and you'd get nothing done. But without some stable base of empathy, I don't think real compassion exists. So, to me this is all about balance and moderation. One sits in Shikantaza and goes inward (and outward, not two) - this is being one alone on the cushion. Yes, the entire universe is there, but you're not trying to actively help other beings at this moment. You're just sitting. When out the world, we have to use our empathy skillfully, and I'd say the skillful use of empathy is compassion.

I also feel that if one is getting "burned out" on empathy then that's not really empathy. That's a person making others' suffering about the self in some way. That's me understanding and feeling some of another's pain and going "Oh, god, what can I do, why I can't I help, I feel just what this other person feels and it breaks my heart" and etc, etc. That's a sort of superficial empathy - it makes another's pain about oneself. Real empathy, to me, can only lead to compassion and care, not making the other's pain about oneself.

To me, part of the argument he's making is being made in order to be controversial. The title is "The Case Against Empathy" (these "The Case Against...." titles are wildly popular right now as signaling some controversial (though typically moralistic) viewpoint). My simple feeling is this: he's really saying "don't overdo" empathy and do it skillfully. But that doesn't make for a very "controversial" seeming article. There's a lot of semantic and rhetorical posturing here, in my opinion. Also, this: if a young doctor quits early in her doctoring is that really because she's too empathetic? I wonder if that's a bit too reductive. On the flip side of this, I've known doctors that were so aloof that my wife was mis-diagnosed and almost given some medicine she was allergic too even though she'd told him she was allergic to it and another instance of a doctor nearly giving our baby the exact same vaccine he'd given her not a month before. So, sure, we should moderate empathy and not wear ourselves out, but to this little mind, many folks are going through the world as though other people are barely there.

Gassho,
Alan
sat today

I was actually having a conversation with my Ango partner about this... I had an extremely stressful day at work last week, meaning deceased patients (some expected, some not), a lot of bad news delivered, grieving clients (including a dear elderly client who lost her only friend) and a lot of complicated medical scenarios to sort out and explain. Knowing I would sit with all of it later, I was able to focus completely on those around me who needed my help all day and truly be there for them 100%.

Without practice, this day would have taken weeks if not months to process, taking my energies away from everything else. Shikantaza helped me move on almost immediately... although I am still not totally recovered, I am aware of what my mind is processing and have faith that it will soon heal just fine. I also have had expressions of gratitude from almost everyone involved that day, letting me know that we are all going forth together in this.

I just feel that these are very wise ways to approach this. Empathy is vital, yet with balance and wisdom too. Thank you.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jundo]

By the way, the following has always touched me. The Dogen movie retells the Kisa Gotami story with Dogen as the principal. From the 48:40 mark here ...


Note the subtle tears falling from Dogen's eyes at 52:00 (a little hard to see on youtube). That always struck me as right too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s5Uz8XSc-Y

(My review of the rest of the movie for those who have not seen it. Recommended.) ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6122-New-Master-Dogen-Movie&p=20686&viewfull=1#post20686

[Jakuden]

Oh that's a very touching scene... I have not seen this movie, I wish I had cable/wifi at my house so that I could watch the rest. Maybe I will try to look to buy it.

A love that is insulated makes sense for a social worker, but it is pathological in a parent toward a child.

I might politely disagree with this--I ended up at Treeleaf in no small part because I was trying to figure out how to cope with raising teenagers. I felt like I was drowning in their problems, not knowing where I ended and they began. What I have learned through Shikantaza turned out, lo and behold, to be very similar to what I had to learn to effectively help anyone. Same principle: empathy is necessary for guidance, but then compassionate action, which might even include stepping back and letting them learn from making poor choices... sometimes serious or recurring ones. It's Godawful and difficult, for me at least.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday

[Jundo]

Oh that's a very touching scene... I have not seen this movie, I wish I had cable/wifi at my house so that I could watch the rest. Maybe I will try to look to buy it.

Just a movie note, I have heard through the grape-vine that the Japanese Soto-shu allows the movie to be shown on Youtube, so if you cannot rent it, you may watch it there. However, do rent it if you can ...

Gassho, J

SatToday (not watching a movie).