The Case Against Empathy

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40862

    The Case Against Empathy

    A fascinating short interview with a Yale psychology professor who, based on compelling evidence, argues that feelings of "empathy" actually can be detrimental to doing good and making helpful decisions. He points, for example, at medical doctors who may find that overly sharing the pain of their patients can cause them to both lose objectivity in treatment and to burn out very quickly.

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    In the middle of the interview, he points to traditional Buddhist doctrines and studies on meditators that seem to point away from encouraging "empathy" (an inner sharing of the feeling of the person who is suffering) in favor of "compassion" (a willingness to help those in need, but with a heart that is rather more aloof and filled with equanimity).

    From another intervview:

    Summing up, compassionate helping is good for you and for others. But empathetic distress is destructive of the individual in the long run.

    It might also be of little help to other people because experiencing others’ pain is exhausting and leads to burnout. This issue is explored in the Buddhist literature on morality. Consider the life of a bodhisattva, an enlightened person who vows not to pass into Nirvana, choosing instead to stay in the normal cycle of life and death to help the masses. How is a bodhisattva to live? In Consequences of Compassion (2009) Charles Goodman notes the distinction in Buddhists texts between “sentimental compassion,” which corresponds to empathy, and “great compassion,” which involves love for others without empathetic attachment or distress. Sentimental compassion is to be avoided, as it “exhausts the bodhisattva.” Goodman defends great compassion, which is more distanced and reserved and can be sustained indefinitely.

    This distinction has some support in the collaborative work of Tania Singer, a psychologist and neuroscientist, and Matthieu Ricard, a Buddhist monk, meditation expert, and former scientist. In a series of studies using fMRI brain scanning, Ricard was asked to engage in various types of compassion meditation directed toward people who are suffering. To the surprise of the investigators, these meditative states did not activate parts of the brain that are normally activated by non-meditators when they think about others’ pain. Ricard described his meditative experience as “a warm positive state associated with a strong prosocial motivation.”

    He was then asked to put himself in an empathetic state and was scanned while doing so. Now the appropriate circuits associated with empathetic distress were activated. “The empathic sharing,” Ricard said, “very quickly became intolerable to me and I felt emotionally exhausted, very similar to being burned out.”

    One sees a similar contrast in ongoing experiments led by Singer and her colleagues in which people are either given empathy training, which focuses on the capacity to experience the suffering of others, or compassion training, in which subjects are trained to respond to suffering with feelings of warmth and care. According to Singer’s results, among test subjects who underwent empathy training, “negative affect was increased in response to both people in distress and even to people in everyday life situations. . . . these findings underline the belief that engaging in empathic resonance is a highly aversive experience and, as such, can be a risk factor for burnout.” Compassion training—which doesn’t involve empathetic arousal to the perceived distress of others—was more effective, leading to both increased positive emotions and increased altruism.
    http://bostonreview.net/forum/paul-b...gainst-empathy
    Please note that he is NOT advocating that people should be uncaring and unhelpful to others, but rather is only questioning the most effective emotions allowing one to do so.

    I think there is something to this assertion. What do you think (especially those of you who are professional or active caretakers for people in need)?

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatToday
    Last edited by Jundo; 02-25-2017, 01:36 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Kyousui
    Member
    • Feb 2017
    • 358

    #2
    I am retired now but worked as an R.N. specializing in adult psychiatry for over 30 years. One of the things they teach in nursing school (I'm not sure about medical school) that to be a holistic practitioner, one needs empathy, not sympathy. The difference, being sympathy is feeling sad for the patient, taking on his/her misery. Being empathetic, meant understanding the full range of the client's feelings, both mental and physical so as to be able to see what the most effective treatment would be. One learned the hard way to keep a boundary between the self and the other's self. It isn't easy and isn't easy to explain. It comes from experience. Still, compassion fatigue is very real in the helping professions.

    I mentioned my specialty because as a bachelor, I have a bit more difficulty relating to children and adolescents. Now, I'm doing Metta with each meditation session to increase my compassion "muscle" and I am seeing it work.

    One sees empathy at work in the 12 step model of addiction. One gets better themselves when working with another addict. It's hard to understand fully something one hasn't experienced themselves.

    Kyousui - strong waters 強 水

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    • Jishin
      Member
      • Oct 2012
      • 4821

      #3
      This is true. I have seen young doctors disabled early in their training. Some never went back to medicine.

      Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

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      • Hoko
        Member
        • Aug 2009
        • 458

        #4
        There's definitely some value to understanding the difference between sympathy and compassion. If someone is freaking out over an impending stressful experience and you are too sympathetic then it could potentially make YOU more fearful. Arguably this makes you less helpful in attending to the other individual's stress. Case in point my wife has a fear of flying and we're heading to Arizona next week and my 9 year old son is terrified. His fear has agitated my wife's anxiety thus making it more challenging for her to attend to her own distress. In my own experience I've "helped out" numerous baby teeth from patients that were nervous about it and there is definitely a point when you have to turn off the voice in your head that's telling you that you are, in actual fact, causing physical and emotional distress to a child! Ever torn off a band aid? Same thing. In rescuing a drowning person one must be very careful in the approach lest you become entangled in their panic and dragged down with them. Ignoring this very real phenomenon is counter productive. So yes, this is definitely an important topic to consider when trying to "be more compassionate". If we're not clear on exactly what that means we could potentially hamstring our efforts to "save all sentient beings".

        So while there's merit to the exploration of this concept my only concern would be that someone could use this as rationalization for being apathetic. Sort of like when Nishijima Roshi said that love should be balanced by hate. Someone who's not clear on what's being said could run with it in a very wrong direction. So while this professor is not "advocating that people should be uncaring and unhelpful to others" there's the very real possibility that someone could tune this part out. Selective hearing is nothing new and neither is creative editing. A good example is the press. The media is all about grabbing attention and even the title "the case against empathy" is an obvious head turner. So as long as the reader can look beyond this and see what's really being discussed (the subtle differences between compassion and sympathy) then I think it's a worthwhile reflection.

        Gassho,
        Hōkō
        #SatToday

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        法 Dharma
        口 Mouth

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        • Mp

          #5
          Thank you Jundo ... very interesting! I have to admit that I have experienced that burnout in my life when dealing with my family's issues. In the past when I saw them struggling I want to fix their suffering, which lead to taking on a lot of their suffering, thus to burnout. Now I support them through listening, giving suggestions when asked, and just being there when they are struggling, but not taking on their struggles ... if that makes sense. At first I did find it hard, as it seemed that I was "disconnected" from them, but in actuality, I become more "connected" with them and not to their suffering.

          It might also be of little help to other people because experiencing others’ pain is exhausting and leads to burnout
          Gassho
          Shingen

          s@today

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          • Jundo
            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
            • Apr 2006
            • 40862

            #6
            Originally posted by TomSchulte
            I am retired now but worked as an R.N. specializing in adult psychiatry for over 30 years. One of the things they teach in nursing school (I'm not sure about medical school) that to be a holistic practitioner, one needs empathy, not sympathy. The difference, being sympathy is feeling sad for the patient, taking on his/her misery. Being empathetic, meant understanding the full range of the client's feelings, both mental and physical so as to be able to see what the most effective treatment would be. One learned the hard way to keep a boundary between the self and the other's self. It isn't easy and isn't easy to explain. It comes from experience. Still, compassion fatigue is very real in the helping professions.

            I mentioned my specialty because as a bachelor, I have a bit more difficulty relating to children and adolescents. Now, I'm doing Metta with each meditation session to increase my compassion "muscle" and I am seeing it work.

            One sees empathy at work in the 12 step model of addiction. One gets better themselves when working with another addict. It's hard to understand fully something one hasn't experienced themselves.
            Maybe you are making much the same point, but using the terminology a bit differently? You speak of "compassion fatigue" while the author seems to speak of "empathy fatigue", and the "empathy" you describe seems to have a quite a bit of objectivity and equanimity about it more like the "compassion" which the author advocates.


            Gassho, J

            SatToday
            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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            • Jakuden
              Member
              • Jun 2015
              • 6141

              #7
              This, IMHO, is 100% true! Whatever the terminology one uses... getting tangled up in the feelings of another being obstructs the ability to be helpful in a compassionate way. It took me several years to figure out that my own emotional turmoil did not make me better able to help others... but keeping those empathetic channels open enough to guide compassionate action is the key. You just need enough empathy to recognize what the other is going through, then it's all other-centered action from there. If they had taught this simple principle in Vet school it would have saved me a lot of suffering and probably would have made me a better doctor those first few years.
              Gassho
              Jakuden
              SatToday



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              • Amelia
                Member
                • Jan 2010
                • 4980

                #8
                I also agree. I can be very empathetic, and when there is a lot of stress and emotion going on around me, I feel it myself and go into panic mode and lock up.

                Gassho, sat today
                求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
                I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

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                • Enjaku
                  Member
                  • Jul 2016
                  • 310

                  #9
                  I see increased feelings of empathy as the natural outcome of turning towards reality, including turning towards pain and suffering. Those who feel sympathy as opposed to empathy may be experiencing others at a distance, reproducing an illusion of the one who suffers and the one who witnesses it. I think true compassion must contain the awareness that self and other are not two.

                  Providing good therapy means understanding that empathy is essential to a strong therapeutic relationship. However, empathy alone is not sufficient. Compassion is needed, as it contains both empathy and the positive intention to help. For me, compassion motivated by empathy is the ideal. In order to provide this effectively, one must also practice a kind of "self empathy", allowing oneself to experience one's own emotions without turning away, and "self compassion", responding to one's own needs. This is an important function of clinical supervision.

                  As I gradually allow the separation between self and others to drop away in my practice, I begin to experience pain and suffering as empty and impermanent. In this way, both my suffering and that of my clients (not two) feels more manageable. That said, when people talk about burnout and compassion fatigue, I fear we simply expect too much of therapists, nurses, doctors etc. Less clients and more supervision seems a more sensible strategy than seeking to somehow moderate our empathy. The British Association of Counselling and Psychotherapy recommends no more than 16 hours client contact per week.

                  Gassho,
                  Enjaku,
                  Sat6
                  Last edited by Enjaku; 02-26-2017, 07:48 AM.
                  援若

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                  • Jundo
                    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                    • Apr 2006
                    • 40862

                    #10
                    I wonder if there is something here. The historical Buddha worked all his life to help sentient beings, yet the old Suttas depict him as rather aloof and above the fray, in this world yet not of it, prescribing the medicine for Dukkha to help our suffering yet cool and collected, never (were there rare exceptions?) depicted as brought to tears or swept with overwhelming emotion in hearing the sad story of the individual. For example, his wise and piercing advice in the famous old Buddhist story of Kisa Ghotami and the mustard seed ...

                    When her son died just a few years into his life, Kisa Gotami went mad with grief. A wise person saw her condition and told her to find the Buddha, who had the medicine she needed. Kisa Gotami went to the Buddha, and asked him to give her the medicine that would restore her dead child to life. The Buddha told her to go out and find a mustard seed from a house where nobody had died. Kisa Gotami was heartened, and began her search, going door to door. Everyone was willing to give her a mustard seed, but every household she encountered had seen at least one death. She understood why the Buddha had sent her on this quest. She returned to the Buddha, who confirmed what she had realized: "There is no house where death does not come."
                    Likewise for most Bodhisattva and Ancestor tales. Kannon is all hearing of the cries of beings, and all hands offering to help, but with a subtle smile or visage of equanimity.



                    In practical terms, the doctor or other care giver should stay calm, observant, objective, with a heart and mind which understand and comprehend the suffering of the patient but which do not get pulled in. It is just as the rescuer of the drowning man who must keep control and not herself panic, yet must not simply stand by and ignore the outreached hand.

                    I feel that this is right. The result is not callous neglect, uncaring inaction, but cool and practical understanding and help. Kannon does not drown in the storming seas of suffering in the world, but rises above it all. The helper cares and offer aid, but sees through the chaos in real concern.



                    Gassho, Jundo

                    SatToday
                    Last edited by Jundo; 02-26-2017, 01:06 AM.
                    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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                    • Mp

                      #11
                      Thank you Jundo, that was nicely put. =)

                      Gassho
                      Shingen

                      s@today

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                      • Jakuden
                        Member
                        • Jun 2015
                        • 6141

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Hoko

                        So while there's merit to the exploration of this concept my only concern would be that someone could use this as rationalization for being apathetic. Sort of like when Nishijima Roshi said that love should be balanced by hate. Someone who's not clear on what's being said could run with it in a very wrong direction. So while this professor is not "advocating that people should be uncaring and unhelpful to others" there's the very real possibility that someone could tune this part out.
                        Yes there definitely are folks in the helping professions that become truly uncaring, with very dangerous and detrimental consequences. I think what happens is: a) a person goes into a helping profession because of a true interest in/desire to help others and devotes time, enthusiasm and often money to learning their field b) the person enters the field and becomes responsible for the amelioration of suffering on a regular basis c) the person either feels guilty if he doesn't fully immerse himself in the emotions of others and then eventually burns out, or else decides to protect himself, which if not done properly can eventually result in a lack of empathy and caring. Unfortunately I do know a few too many practitioners who have arrived at this state and might see this study as support for their laziness or lack of involvement with those they are supposed to help.

                        The point being, as Jundo outlines, that there is a Middle Way. Empathy is vital, as it is the voice that tells you what you need to do, but then it is the action that follows that is important.

                        Gassho,
                        Jakuden
                        SatToday

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                        • Kyousui
                          Member
                          • Feb 2017
                          • 358

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Jakuden
                          b) the person enters the field and becomes responsible for the amelioration of suffering on a regular basis
                          Gassho,
                          Jakuden
                          Whenever one takes responsibility for another person, that becomes dangerous and easy to become enmeshed in the drama. That's what boundaries are for - no for fences to keep others out.

                          Kyousui - strong waters 強 水

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                          • Joyo

                            #14
                            Thank you, Jundo. As a highly sensitive person, I've spent my whole life struggling with this.

                            Gassho,
                            Joyo
                            sat today

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                            • pthwaites
                              Member
                              • Aug 2016
                              • 48

                              #15
                              Hello all. Thanks for this interesting discussion. I enjoyed the interview. There were a couple of thoughts that arose while listening.

                              First, the author appeared to be thinking of empathy quite narrowly, as the sense of feeling the pain felt by others. This is undoubtedly something that can be exploited for some very dangerous ends - Islamist propaganda depends upon it, for example. But empathy is not limited to this definition, in my view. For example, it also includes the ability to share in others' joy.

                              Second, the author shared the example of losing his self-possession as his son struggled with his homework. In a case like this, I think that the issue is not so much too much empathy as too little ability to manage that empathy - what I think psychologists would refer to as executive control. So in sum, I'd say that I was not convinced that being empathic is really the problem - it's more a question of being able to balance that empathy with other impulses, knowledge, experience, etc.

                              I think meditation has a role to play in the development of this sort of balance and management of emotion. But I'm curious what everyone thinks about how helpful shikantaza specifically might be? In other traditions, there are meditation techniques which focus on imagining difficult situations and practicing the avoidance of reactivity. These seem to me to be well placed to combat the effects of empathy as the author in the interview appeared to define it. Does shikantaza present the same level of training here?

                              Gassho
                              Sat today
                              Peter

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