Split Thread: Metta When and Whenless

[Kyousui]

JUNDO NOTE: I MOVED THIS DISCUSSION FROM A THREAD ASKING FOR METTA for DAIHO HILBERT WHO SUFFERED A VERY BURNED HAND THIS WEEK.

I usually include Metta with any meditation practice I do.
Will add Daiho to my list.
How do we know when it is no longer needed (for it's original purpose)?

[Jundo]

How do we know when it is no longer needed (for it's original purpose)?

It has no beginning or end, is always needed and never needed.

I hope that helps.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Kyousui]

So Daiho's burn will never end?

[Jundo]

So Daiho's burn will never end?

Yes, precisely.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Kyousui]

Yes, precisely.

Gassho, J

SatToday

Elicitate

[Jundo]

Elicitate

You mean you want an explanation? Hmmm. I will pass the ball to Shunryu Suzuki Roshi ...

In a nutshell, this time is all times, there is no other times and, anyway, what time!

Within this moment, this temporal
existence does not change, does not move, and is
always independent from other existences. In the next moment
another existence arises; we may change to something
else. Strictly speaking, there is no connection between I
myself yesterday and I myself in this moment; there is no
connection whatsoever. Dogen-zenji said, "Charcoal does
not become ashes." Ashes are ashes; they do not belong to
charcoal. They have their own past and future. They are an
independent existence because they are a flashing into the
vast phenomenal world. And charcoal and red-hot fire are
quite different existences. Black charcoal is also a flashing
into the vast phenomenal world. Where there is black charcoal
there is not red-hot charcoal. So black charcoal is
independent of red-hot charcoal; ashes are independent of
firewood; each existence is independent.
Today I am sitting in Los Altos. Tomorrow morning I
shall be in San Francisco. There is no connection between
the "I " in Los Altos and the "I " in San Francisco. They are
quite different beings. Here we have the freedom of existence.
And there is no quality connecting you and me; when
I say "you," there is no "I" ; when I say "I, " there is no
"you." You are independent, and I am independent; each
exists in a different moment. But this does not mean we are
quite different beings. We are actually one and the same
being. We are the same, and yet different. It is very paradoxical,
but actually it is so. Because we are independent
beings, each one of us is a complete flashing into the vast
phenomenal world. When I am sitting, there is no other
person, but this does not mean I ignore you, I am completely
one with every existence in the phenomenal world. So when
I sit, you sit; everything sits with me. That is our zazen.
When you sit, everything sits with you. And everything
makes up the quality of your being.

***

So when you practice zazen, there is no idea of time or
space. You may say, "We started sitting at a quarter to six
in this room." Thus you have some idea of time (a quarter
to six), and some idea of space (in this room). Actually
what you are doing, however, is just sitting and being aware
of the universal activity. That is all. This moment the swinging
door is opening in one direction, and the next moment
the swinging door will be opening in the opposite direction.
Moment after moment each one of us repeats this activity.
Here there is no idea of time or space. Time and space are
one. You may say, "I must do something this afternoon,"
but actually there is no "this afternoon." We do things one
after the other. That is all. There is no such time as "this
afternoon" or "one o'clock" or "two o'clock." At one
o'clock you will eat your lunch. To eat lunch is itself one
o'clock. You will be somewhere, but that place cannot be
separated from one o'clock. For someone who actually appreciates
our life, they are the same.

from ZMBM

http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/zenmind.pdf

Shohaku Okumura Roshi also offers this ...

[Dogen wrote in Genjo Koan:]

Firewood becomes ash. Ash cannot turn back into firewood again. However, we should not view ash as after and firewood as before. We should know that firewood dwells in the dharma position of firewood and it has its own before and after. Although there is before and after, past and future are cut off. Ash stays at the position of ash and it has its own before and after.

We usually think we are born, live and die within the stream of time flowing from the past to the future through the present. But Dogen says it is not the only way to see the "time". ... We think there is a stream of time, like a river that is flowing from the beginningless past to the endless future. When I was born I appear in the stream and when I die I disappear from the stream. But the stream continues to flow before my birth and after my death. This is our thought about time, history and our own lives. And as a thought, it might be not wrong. But this is not exactly how we live and die.

According to Dogen, 'time' is 'being' and 'being' is 'time'. As a tree, a tree has it own time. As firewood, firewood has it own time. As ash, ash has also it own time. Each being is at its own dharma-position (hoi), and at each dharma-position, each being has its own past and future. When a tree is at the dharma-position of a tree, it has it own past as a seed and its own future as firewood. When firewood is at the dharma-position of firewood, it has its own past as a tree and its own future as ash. When ash stays as its dharma-position as ash, it has its own past as a tree and its own future as something else. If ash is scattered on the mountain it will be part of the mountain and help other beings to grow.

And the dharma-positions of a tree, of firewood, and of ash are independent of each other. When we use the analogy of tree, firewood, ash, or each stage of our own life and death, each position seems to have length of time. But, as a reality, the present moment does not have any length. If there is length, no matter how short it is, we can cut it into half and one half is already in the past and another half is still in the future. When I say "now", when I pronounce "n", "ow" is still in the future. When I pronounce "w", "no" is already in the past. The present moment has no length. It is zero. When we think of a certain period of 'time' including the present moment, all which exists is only past and present. The present moment is just a "line" without any width as its definition in geometry. Isn't it strange? The present moment is the only reality, the past is already gone and the future has not yet come. Still there is nothing that can be grasped as the present moment. The present moment does not exist. So, time does not really exist. Still, at the present moment which is zero and does not exist, the entire past and the entire future are reflected. And this present moment (zero) is the only real reality. And at each moment, everything continuously arises and perishes. Each moment everything is new and fresh.

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Dogen_Teachings/Genjokoan_Okumara.htm

Dogen also had this teaching on the passing seasons: We usually think that the year passes, and for example, spring becomes summer. But Dogen said, while that is true, spring is wholly spring and summer is wholly summer. Each contains all time and just this time. One does not "become" anything else for there is not anything else to become. When there is spring, the whole universe is spring and there is nothing else ... when it is winter, the whole universe is winter and there is nothing else ...

I hope that sufficiently elicitated.

By the way, the above are just alternative ways to experience time from our usual clock and calendar watching. Of course, in our day to day lives, the past seems to roll on into the future, 1:00 becomes 2:00, and the seasons pass. However, how freeing to experience time in these other ways when, for example, the future rolls into the past. Or, that one moment holds and expresses all moments of time. Or, that there is something measureless and indivisible about reality, thus the universe is ultimately timeless.

All good ways to know time (and timeless). So it is for Daiho's hand and your offered Metta too.

Now, just go sit, for the time of sitting Zazen is all time, is just this time, there is no other time.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Kyousui]

You mean you want an explanation? Hmmm. I will pass the ball to Shunryu Suzuki Roshi ...

In a nutshell, this time is all times, there is no other times and, anyway, what time!



Shohaku Okumura Roshi also offers this ...



Dogen also had this teaching on the passing seasons: We usually think that the year passes, and for example, spring becomes summer. But Dogen said, while that is true, spring is wholly spring and summer is wholly summer. Each contains all time and just this time. One does not "become" anything else for there is not anything else to become. When there is spring, the whole universe is spring and there is nothing else ... when it is winter, the whole universe is winter and there is nothing else ...

I hope that sufficiently elicitated.

By the way, the above are just alternative ways to experience time from our usual clock and calendar watching. Of course, in our day to day lives, the past seems to roll on into the future, 1:00 becomes 2:00, and the seasons pass. However, how freeing to experience time in these other ways when, for example, the future rolls into the past. Or, that one moment holds and expresses all moments of time. Or, that there is something measureless and indivisible about reality, thus the universe is ultimately timeless.

All good ways to know time (and timeless). So it is for Daiho's hand and your offered Metta too.

Now, just go sit, for the time of sitting Zazen is all time, is just this time, there is no other time.

Gassho, J

SatToday

Fine head scratching philosophy to take into meditation and this thread would be a good place to put other/more teachings on the subject, but my original question how can we know when the specified condition appears resolved in a relative sense. In other words when Diaho's hand skin no longer out of homeostasis.

[Jundo]

Fine head scratching philosophy to take into meditation and this thread would be a good place to put other/more teachings on the subject, but my original question how can we know when the specified condition appears resolved in a relative sense. In other words when Diaho's hand skin no longer out of homeostasis.

Oh, yes, of course. That too!

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jundo]

Fine head scratching philosophy to take into meditation and this thread would be a good place to put other/more teachings on the subject, but my original question how can we know when the specified condition appears resolved in a relative sense. In other words when Diaho's hand skin no longer out of homeostasis.

Let me mention, however, that this unusual descriptions of time are not merely "philosophy". There are actual experiences of fluid time (and timeless) that one can pierce on the cushion and bring into life. We are literally prisoners of the clock and calendar, and they thus are freeing.

For Daiho, his wound will take months to heal, yet is just the time of the wound, and is all time and no time. Daiho can experience this, I know.

I am going to post an old thread on Master Dogen's many views on time(s) and timelessnesses ...

For those folks unfamiliar with his writings, Master Dogen had some very interesting perspective(s) on time. And I emphasize the word "perspective(s)", because he wrote of an infinite variety of ways of looking and experiencing time (and "no time") ... some seemingly contradictory, each true in its own way.

Now, for those who would say that this is just "Buddhist philosophy" and offers nothing to our Practice, let me tell you why penetrating these perspective(s) is Golden. Most are not our typical, day to day way of looking at time ... but are freeing. For example:

- Each moment, whatever its content, happy or sad, is true and sacred and a sparkling jewel. Push none of it away ... "sad childhoods" and "scary futures" included.

- But, from another simultaneously true perspective, there really are no "separate moments", nor "happy vs. sad" (without the human mind to cut things up that way and impose judgments such as times we like and times we dislike). The trees and mountains probably do not need to think to themselves "Today is Tuesday, and it is better than yesterday, and I hope tomorrow it rains"). One aspect of this is that, in a sense, "sad childhoods long ago" and "scary/desired futures" exist primarily right now between your ears. Be more like the trees and mountains!

- All time is so interconnected and whole, that ... not only does the past flow into the future ... but (like the top of a mountain that flows into the bottom, and the bottom of the mountain which flows into the top) the future flows into the past.

- All time is so interconnected and whole ... that each moment, from one perspective, contains and expresses all moments. ... like each single step of a ballerina holds and expresses the whole ballet she is dancing.

- All time is so interconnected to life, that it may be said that all things, each of us, lives in our own 'being-time' ... like our own picture which we are constantly painting, and which we make and remake with every step and choice, gesture, word and thought ("this moment is the start of the rest of your life" is just the tip of the iceberg!)

- "Long" and "short" are really just human judgments (the Earth does not say to itself "Gee, it takes me a long time to get around the sun!" The firefly does not say, "shame I only shine for a fortnight"). Those measurements can be dropped from mind, whereby concepts such as "long life" and "short life" can be dropped from mind.

- All time (from another simultaneously true perspective) is a state of mind ... and there is no true "past" or "future" or "present" when the mind stops cutting up "just this" into categories, which the human mind imposes all manner of judgments and divisions upon. Even the word "present" then has no meaning if there is no "past" or "future" to compare it to. What remains is the ultimate "just going with the flowing".

and other perspectives too ...

I wrote the following awhile back (perfectly what it is in that moment and this) .. .

ON DOGEN-TIME

As to Dogen's conception of Being-Time. I can give that to you in a nutshell. It helps to realize that Dogen was always proposing Reality from several perspectives at once, some seemingly contradictory (X exists, X does not exist), but just different vantage points, each true in its way:

So, we usually think that time flows past to present to future, and that events over 'here' and 'now' are not events over 'there' and 'then'. Well, that is true in its way. But Dogen also pointed out that the past is just a memory of the mind (it was, after all, just the 'present' back then), and the future is just a dream of the mind (what future has there been yet?). In that way, 'past' and 'future' are just dreams. So, without there truly being a 'past' or 'future', what need have we even for the word 'present' (which only exists as a concept in contrast to what is -not- the present)? If we compare it a little to a 'river', it is a little like saying that there is no 'upstream' or 'downstream' or 'here' to the river, if we just see it all as a single 'just-the-river'.

And because every place on the river is 'just the river', every drop of the river is 'just the river', everything happens SIMULTANEOUSLY! Both the top and bottom of the river are present simultaneously and are one. Because everything that is of the river is just the river, everything that happens 'here' happens 'here' 'there' and 'everywhere' too. (I don't like overly connecting modern physics to Dogen, but there are parallels: For example, we think of the 'Big Bang' as something that happened in the past, but in some mathematical models, it is happening right now and every time too. Furthermore, where in the universe is the 'Big Bang' not happening(?), because all came out of the Big Bang at once).

Further, there is a past and future too (there is, and there is not). But the future flows into the present which flows into the past. It is a little like saying that, though a river flows from upstream to downstream, you cannot have downstream without upstream. Downstream also flows into the upstream. Modern physics has come intrigingly close to this by saying that all timelines actually can be seen as running in two directions (the dominoes falling down can also be seen as the dominos 'unfalling up').

And every drop of the river flows into every other drop of the river, so that what happens to Drop X is the time and being of Drop Y. If you drink a cup of coffee, it is the whole universe drinking a cup of coffee. And if you are doing it here and now, the whole universe is here and now.

Furthermore, everything in the universe had its own 'time'. (Again, by coincidence perhaps, Einstein stumbled upon a model something like this a few centuries later). My life-clock is not your life-clock.

We also think of time as 'long' or short' ... but would a creature that lives its lifetime in a day or a creature with a lifetime of 10,000 years view time the same way as mankind? Are not 'long and short' subjective judgments of men, and is not 'time' just" time' (just what it is, not long or short)? And can we not say too that every moment is an eternity unto itself? .

And, of course, time is not separate from being, and being is not separate from time ... In other words, all of the above is just YOU!

And on and on it goes. It is just another way of seeing life and being as of one piece with all of space and time, with all Reality. It is just another way too of tossing a monkey wrench in our normal way of seeing events and who we are.

Now, I am out of time ... so time to stop.

Anyway, I have not even begun to scratch the surface. If you want to read Dogen original words in Uji, have a look here ...

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Dogen_Teachings/Uji.htm

And a scholar's paper here:

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/dirck.htm

Does that help?

==================

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Kyousui]

Yep, that's the depth of I was hoping to learn from

[Seishin]

Thank you for such insightful teaching Jundo. This in particular struck a chord with me

.
And the dharma-positions of a tree, of firewood, and of ash are independent of each other. When we use the analogy of tree, firewood, ash, or each stage of our own life and death, each position seems to have length of time. But, as a reality, the present moment does not have any length. If there is length, no matter how short it is, we can cut it into half and one half is already in the past and another half is still in the future. When I say "now", when I pronounce "n", "ow" is still in the future. When I pronounce "w", "no" is already in the past. The present moment has no length. It is zero. When we think of a certain period of 'time' including the present moment, all which exists is only past and present. The present moment is just a "line" without any width as its definition in geometry. Isn't it strange? The present moment is the only reality, the past is already gone and the future has not yet come. Still there is nothing that can be grasped as the present moment. The present moment does not exist. So, time does not really exist. Still, at the present moment which is zero and does not exist, the entire past and the entire future are reflected. And this present moment (zero) is the only real reality. And at each moment, everything continuously arises and perishes. Each moment everything is new and fresh.

How hard it is though for us humans to get rid of the need to know time, be that the time or a length of time. First thing I'd did when I retired was stop wearing a watch. Don't miss it at all but still such a long way from the mountains rivers and trees.

So if this is so

The present moment does not exist. So, time does not really exist. Still, at the present moment which is zero and does not exist, the entire past and the entire future are reflected. And this present moment (zero) is the only real reality

Does reality then not exist and is just a delusion ?

[MyoHo]

Reality does exist but what we usually see and perceive as reality, is not reality. It is what our mind makes of it and what it feels should be reality. Reality is that we are born, we get sick and we die. Why is it that people who are soon to leave this world have so many regrets? If you were to find the very last Twinky ( not making them anymore)
Would you gobble it down, drop half of it on the floor or maybe throw half of it away? If someone was to say to us " this is it bro, get ready, tomorrow its all over", how would you look at the sky, the sun, your shoes or even the dishes on the counter? In my vieuw all would change on a moment and every moment with loved ones, your favourite stuff and activities would be precious and not to be wasted. The way I see it, our practice makes every day Christmas eve and Valentines day and Mothers or fathersday and your birthday, all roled into one. Because we learn to see its All Good. Its OK. Precious, because in truth, its all already over. So good or bad, high or low, rich or poor, young or old, strong or ill, is all part of the dance of life. We only need to learn to see it that way. That in my mind is reality.

but what do I know

Gassho

MyoHo

sat today

Gassho