Mind Waves -- Thoughts During Zazen

[JimH]

I was re-reading "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" today, and came upon this quote by Shunryu Suzuki. I know there has been a lot of discussion about how to deal with thoughts that arise during zazen, and I thought that this might be helpful:

When you are practicing zazen, do not try to stop your thinking. Let it stop by itself. If something comes into your mind, let it come in, and let it go out. It will not stay long. When you try to stop your thinking, it means you are bothered by it. Do not be bothered by anything. It appears as if something comes from outside your mind, but actually it is only the waves of your mind, and if you are not bothered by the waves, gradually they will become calmer and calmer. In five or at most ten minutes, your mind will be completely serene and calm. At that time your breathing will become quite slow, while your pulse will become a little faster.

It will take quite a long time before you find your calm, serene mind in your practice. Many sensations come, many thoughts or images arise, but they are just waves of your own mind.

--JimH (SatToday!)

[Jundo]

Lovely Suzuki Roshi.

I might wonder if he truly meant to say that the point is to become "completely serene and calm", and how long to get there.

Sometimes in sitting, we become "completely serene and calm" in the ordinary English meaning of those words.

But if we truly sit with all as is, in Shikantaza, letting all be in equanimity, knowing the completeness of just sitting itself ... both the serene and the ambulance sirens, the calm and the calamity, the complete and the hopelessly incomplete and broken ...

... then we master a Big S Serenity that holds all small human sense of serene or silence or screaming, a Big C Calm that is sometimes calm and sometimes cancer and sometimes crying with a broken heart as humans will, a Completeness that holds all of life's pieces both round and sharp and missing. That is Complete Serenity Calm.

I am sure that Suzuki Roshi meant that, not some cheap calmness and serenity that one gets from a cup of tea or a postcard sunset.

Gassho, J

SatToday

PS - Jim, would you kindly post an avatar photo of your human face, in some way we can look you in the eye. It helps make things a bit more human around here. Thank you.

[Seishin]

Jim thanks for sharing guess I needed this after a few troublesome weeks on the zafu

It will take quite a long time before you find your calm, serene mind in your practice.

[Onkai]

Thank you Jim, for the quote and Jundo for the clarification.

Gassho,
Onkai
SatToday

[Ugrok]

I love Suzuki roshi ! Still, sometimes i find it takes effort to get out of thought trains. Especially when there are emotions involved ; a thought leads to an emotion, which leads to a thought, which leads to a stronger emotion, etc etc. For this i did not find any other way than voluntarily saying "thinking" or "stop" and coming back to the posture or just "being there". But maybe i'm wrong and should let it all go its course ? I'll try next time !

Gassho,

Uggy,

Sat today

[Seishin]

I love Suzuki roshi ! Still, sometimes i find it takes effort to get out of thought trains. Especially when there are emotions involved ; a thought leads to an emotion, which leads to a thought, which leads to a stronger emotion, etc etc. For this i did not find any other way than voluntarily saying "thinking" or "stop" and coming back to the posture or just "being there". But maybe i'm wrong and should let it all go its course ? I'll try next time !

Gassho,

Uggy,

Sat today

Uggy same here. I'll say to myself "let go" or "find the breath" just to break the train. Guess its all just practice and time. I've gone back to really focusing on the breath the last few days and really concentrating, maybe contrary to Jundo's teaching, so I'm also going over the newbie vids again to see if I'm missing something. Found a session of guided mindful breathing meditation every other day (after I run) has helped me connect to the breath more. But I've only been sitting daily for 4 months so I guess I'm still inexperienced.

[Jundo]

Hi Uggy and Toby,

Nothing wrong with any of that, nothing wrong with doing any of that when you need. Just don't get caught there in trying to stop the thoughts or develop deep concentration on the breath. Zazen is not being free of thoughts or emotions (in the sense of not having any), but is being free of thoughts and emotions (in the sense of just paying them "no nevermind" as we say in English). Zazen is not getting a runner's high, but more the wholenss of pain and pleasure, road and runner as one, that run where the destination is each step yet we press on and on. The former (trying to stop the thoughts) is not as helpful as learning to see the non-thought which shines through and as all thoughts and no thoughts ... the latter (seeking states of concentration or high) is like scaffolding without a building, not letting go to the buildingless building and the roadless road which is our Way.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=it%20don%27t%20make%20no%20nevermind

Uggy, it is possible that Shikantaza is not for you. I do have to tell that to some folks from time to time who just have a mind that runs wild, such as in your case with thoughts of death or such. It may be that seeking another teacher or method, and focusing on a Koan or a Mantra might be better. Only you can say at a certain point. If someone can't find how to get on the unicycle and just balance and be, I give them bus fare or tell them to ride a horse instead.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Ugrok]

Hi Jundo !

Thanks for the advice. I've been practicing zazen daily for 5 years, so i know that it's an "up and down" affair for me. I can have months of peaceful zazen when i'm anxiety free, then months of agitated zazen when i'm more anxious. All in all it's been such an improvement in my life that i'm not ready to let it go, and i trust it somehow, even when it's difficult (which it is not always). Even when it's really difficult, i always stand up feeling better than before i sat, so i take this as a clue that it's somehow okay for me. It helps a lot to see that what anxiety tells me is never true, for example, or has nothing to do with my real situation. I know i sound grim on those forums, but that's because i only speak about what troubles me, not about the wonderful discoveries i made and still make from time to time ! Sorry about that, by the way...

Gassho,

Uggy
Sat today

Ps : if everyone that thought of death or feared death stopped practicing, i'm willing to bet there would not be a lot of people practicing, hahaha !

[Jundo]

Hi Ugrok,

As Daizan said today, it is those rough times, ups and downs, that really teach us. By passing the rough and down roads, we truly learn the peace and strenght to transcend the roughness, and all up or down. Kind of like a pilot who really learns his skills by the storms he experiences in the air, not just the clear skies.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Ugrok]

Thank you Jundo,

Gassho,

Always-complaining-Uggy
Sat Today

[Seishin]

Jundo

Many thanks for the teaching. I've always found that "runner's high" a bit of a misnomer, as its really effortless effort in my experience, just like the thoughtless thoughts when we sit shikantaza. Its just that I'm not quite there yet. I'm am sure this is only temporary, just like the rest of our impermanent Universe(s) and my mind will eventually settle into thought-non thought.