Make America Zen Again! (and Treeleaf's Take on Things) ...

[Hoko]

I voted.
I'm Buddhist.
Therefore this is "engaged Buddhism".

But also...
I tried to categorize the world into this or that and the damn thing bit me. Thus:
There is no Buddhism.
There is nothing to engage.

Repeat as necessary. 😁

Gassho,
Hōkō
#SatToday


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[RichardH]

...what role does engaged Buddhism have to play and how is it manifest?

Hi Martyn. Maybe there are as many answers as there are Buddhists.

Speaking just from my own experience, and please takes this with a grain of salt.... the "taste" of it that I am getting is like this; Being grounded in practice means that action springs from a middle way that does not fall into either form or emptiness. The world is serious business that touches this heart, yet right in the deepest touching itself, the heart remains untouched and free. The world appears perpetually off-kilter and endlessly reaching for resolution, yet at the same time it is already a self-same perfection as such.

That may all sound a bit too poetic, but these are the words that come up.

What this means in terms of action is just the ordinary range of acting, but not driven by existential fear or hatred. It can include sharp, direct, action as the situation calls for it. So in a nutshell I'd say "Engaged Buddhism" does not prescribe certain kinds of action, but speaks to where that action is coming from. When it is coming from practice there is much freedom and skill in action, and innovation ..and effectiveness.

This is just from a baby step taste of it...


Gassho
Daizan
sat today

[Kyonin]

Hi all,

For me the term Engaged Buddhism is just everyday practice. How can you be a Buddhist if you don't point your efforts to the well being of all sentient beings? I know it means to take active stance and be an activist of sorts, but at the end it's just practice.

When it comes to politics, do our civic duties is also part of practice.

But that's just me.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Jakuden]

Hi Martyn. Maybe there are as many answers as there are Buddhists.

Speaking just from my own experience, and please takes this with a grain of salt.... the "taste" of it that I am getting is like this; Being grounded in practice means that action springs from a middle way that does not fall into either form or emptiness. The world is serious business that touches this heart, yet right in the deepest touching itself, the heart remains untouched and free. The world appears perpetually off-kilter and endlessly reaching for resolution, yet at the same time it is already a self-same perfection as such.

That may all sound a bit too poetic, but these are the words that come up.

What this means in terms of action is just the ordinary range of acting, but not driven by existential fear or hatred. It can include sharp, direct, action as the situation calls for it. So in a nutshell I'd say "Engaged Buddhism" does not prescribe certain kinds of action, but speaks to where that action is coming from. When it is coming from practice there is much freedom and skill in action, and innovation ..and effectiveness.

This is just from a baby step taste of it...


Gassho
Daizan
sat today

Thanks Daizan that's very helpful! Would you say the Eightfold Path gives us guidelines on how to do/be this?

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday

[RichardH]

Thanks Daizan that's very helpful! Would you say the Eightfold Path gives us guidelines on how to do/be this?

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday

Hi Jakuden. I'm glad you found it helpful.

Yes, the eightfold path as expressed by Jundo and our lineage, through the straightforward practice of Shikantaza. It is all there. So just keeping doing what we are doing. ..or nondoing.

Gassho
Daizan

Sat today

[martyrob]

Thank you all for those considered responses, including Jishin's trademark gnomic answer. Daizen, that's a really interesting thought, thank you. I was struck by your post earlier in the thread and I shall spend some time with this. I guess the unencumbered heart knows the right thing to do.
Many thanks to all.

Martyn

Sat today.


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[Jundo]

I guess the unencumbered heart knows the right thing to do.

Not always. I was never one to believe that some form of insight from Zazen or the like will always tell one "the right thing to do" in all situations. That is kind of a legend added on to the biographies of old dead masters, that they always knew "the one right thing to do." Life is not so simple. Some dilemmas remain dilemmas, some not knowing remains not knowing. Even for Buddhas.

But at least our heart is then unencumbered amid the dilemma and not knowing!

And that can make all the difference in living and acting skillfully in this complicated minefield of a world. Best to try to walk through calmly.

At least, if nevertheless still unintentionally stepping on a mine, one's heart is unencumbered right up to that moment.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[RichardH]

Thank you all for those considered responses, including Jishin's trademark gnomic answer. Daizen, that's a really interesting thought, thank you. I was struck by your post earlier in the thread and I shall spend some time with this. I guess the unencumbered heart knows the right thing to do.
Many thanks to all.

Martyn

Sat today.


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This heart isn't always unencumbered. It gets right in there and rolls around sometimes and can be a real drama king. But this happens less so because of ongoing practice. That's why I talked about baby steps.
There is just less fear in general and that is very freeing.

....I just got a notice in mail today....just saw a few minutes ago...saying that the federal revenue agency did not get my business taxes for 2014, and it looks all official and lawyered up. They did get the taxes and there is a receipt somewhere, but it's going to mean fussing with the bureaucracy which is not fun. The point of mentioning this is because there was a time when such a notice would have FREAKED... ME... OUT .
Now it just doesn't... it is more like "oh..well.. deal with it" and that's it. This is because of our practice, and it is a little miracle, because it means I am able to meet responsibilities, including social ones, more effectively without spinning more melodrama and problems.

Gassho
Daizan

sat today

[Kyotai]

This heart isn't always unencumbered. It gets right in there and rolls around sometimes and can be a real drama king. But this happens less so because of ongoing practice. That's why I talked about baby steps.
There is just less fear in general and that is very freeing.

....I just got a notice in mail today....just saw a few minutes ago...saying that the federal revenue agency did not get my business taxes for 2014, and it looks all official and lawyered up. They did get the taxes and there is a receipt somewhere, but it's going to mean fussing with the bureaucracy which is not fun. The point of mentioning this is because there was a time when such a notice would have FREAKED... ME... OUT .
Now it just doesn't... it is more like "oh..well.. deal with it" and that's it. This is because of our practice, and it is a little miracle, because it means I am able to meet responsibilities, including social ones, more effectively without spinning more melodrama and problems.

Gassho
Daizan

sat today

It must be "pick on treeleafers" week at the Canada Revenue Agency. They just noticed that they overpaid me $1,000 in 2011 during parental leave with my son.

Gassho, Kyotai
ST

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[Kyotai]

Not always. I was never one to believe that some form of insight from Zazen or the like will always tell one "the right thing to do" in all situations. That is kind of a legend added on to the biographies of old dead masters, that they always knew "the one right thing to do." Life is not so simple. Some dilemmas remain dilemmas, some not knowing remains not knowing. Even for Buddhas.

But at least our heart is then unencumbered amid the dilemma and not knowing!

And that can make all the difference in living and acting skillfully in this complicated minefield of a world. Best to try to walk through calmly.

At least, if nevertheless still unintentionally stepping on a mine, one's heart is unencumbered right up to that moment.

Gassho, J

SatToday

I very much enjoyed this comment. Thank you Jundo.

Gassho, Kyotai
ST

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[Jundo]

Someone wrote me, in light of the ongoing debate between Brad and Jiryu ...

http://hardcorezen.info/should-plumbing-be-political/5108

... whether I believe there is ever a time to speak loudly about politics and social policy "from the pulpit," marching in protest and the like. OH, YES!

If government policies cross a line of hate, discrimination, unjustified violence, infringement of human rights, damage to the environment, there certainly is a time to speak up, march and protest, maybe go to jail for it. I might dare in such cases to speak out "from the pulpit", and even on behalf of the whole Sangha if I believe a matter particularly serious and beyond reasonable question. We may be very close to such lines these days in the United States, certainly that line has been crossed many places around the world. There are certain government actions that, I feel, would entail complicity and violation of the Precepts by merely sitting silent.

But it is a funny thing about the Precepts, at least as I see them (other Buddhists may disagree). There are certain lines where right and wrong are pretty black and white to my eyes: Child abuse would always be wrong, and there is simply no justification that I can imagine. To even stand silent in the face of child abuse would be wrong to my eyes, and a kind of complicity. I would speak out against child abuse in any and all cases, even on behalf of this Sangha. Likewise in opposing genocide, nuclear war or racial discrimination.

But then things may get a bit tricky, and few things are so clear to all:

The taking of the life of a sentient being is wrong, yet perhaps not in all cases: War is generally to be avoided and is always tragic, but is a war undertaken to protect a greater number of lives or society in general or western societies unjustified? Even if some innocent bystanders, even children, will be killed in doing so? What of capital punishment meant (at least by intent) as a deterrent to possible future criminals? Do tragic police shootings always represent systemic racial discrimination, or the pressures of under appreciated and over stressed police officers with their lives on the line, or both? What of euthanasia or assisted suicide for the terminally ill or those in irreversible pain? Buddhist voices and interpretations of the Precepts, now and for centuries, have disagreed on these very questions.

Child abuse is wrong, and the taking of sentient life is wrong, but good Buddhists may come to disagree on a woman's right to an abortion and the preservation of life (some Buddhist countries such as Thailand and Myanmar restrict or ban abortions based on their view of the Precepts) ...

http://www.scienceworldreport.com/articles/49186/20161007/zika-update-abortion-legal-yes-related-thai-birth-defect-cases.htm

https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-09-08/providing-safe-illegal-abortions-myanmar-karmic-balance-says-one-doctor

Good Buddhists will disagree about this issue.

I have my own personal opinions, and they are clear to me (although often more as a necessary evil than something I celebrate). I personally strongly support a woman's right to choose. I believe that most (although not all) Buddhists I know in modern Western countries will support a woman's right to choose abortion during the early months of pregnancy, and later in the case of rape or when the life and health of the mother is at risk. However, not all Buddhists, even in the modern West, agree and there is a Buddhist view of abortion very much paralleling the belief of some Christians of "right to life" (listen to the short interview about Myanmar Buddhists above).

I have my own view on this issue, but I recognize that other Buddhists do and will disagree while, in their view, remaining well within the Precepts. I believe that they are well within the Precepts too (although they may believe that I am not!) As an individual, without my Robes, you will find me calling and marching for a "Woman's Right to Choose", but I will not seek to speak for all good Buddhists or impose my interpretation on them.

BOTTOM LINE: There will be clear cases in which I must speak out, perhaps as representative of this Sangha (Would anyone object to my protesting child abuse or genocide or supporting clean air in general?). In other situations, while perhaps some Buddhists are misguided in their interpretations compared to others, I will not make that call for them. So, there will be so many cases on specific policies (such as on particular environmental policies such as supporting or opposing nuclear energy or opposing an oil pipeline or banning fluoride in the water supply) where I hesitate to take one position as spokesperson for this Sangha, no matter how I personally feel as one person. It will be case to case, best left to the good judgment and freedom of individual members as grown adults. I am not going to seek to speak for everybody, nor tell you the position to take.

It is fine for members to debate an issue among themselves in this place, so long as all are civil and polite in doing so. In fact, we do discuss and debate issues such as abortion, euthanasia, the justification for a particular war and the like many times in this Community, in our Precept reflections for Jukai and elsewhere in this Forum. It is just that I want things to remain civil and polite without shouting, name calling, screaming, flaming, threatening with damnation to hell and the like that seems to fill the internet and TV.

If there are Zen Teachers and other individual Sangha members who draw their line one place, then those Zen Teachers and other individual members should speak out and take action for themself!

If there are Zen Teachers and other individual Sangha members who do not draw their line there, then those Zen Teachers and other individuals can choose not to.

To each their own.

And there may be some cases where I dare speak for this Community. Heck, I may have the gumption to speak for all Buddhists, all sentient beings in the ten directions!

When a line is crossed, I will be there ... speaking out, marching and maybe getting thrown in jail. If things are sufficiently black and white, I may even dare to "speak from the pulpit" for all of us. In other cases, I will leave you to draw your own lines and come to your own understanding of things. I have no exclusive pipeline to God or Buddha on most questions.

I am sorry that I cannot be clearer on this topic. It is just not black and white.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Enjaku]

Thanks Jundo and everyone for this ongoing discussion.

Not to further complicate matters... but I don't think there is ever a problem with one publicly stating one's own opinion, as you say, respectfully and politely. I don't even think there is a problem with a priest at SFZC taking a firm stance in opposing the policies of the president elect. My issue continues to be where people confuse opposing views and actions with judging individuals. If a child is being abused, or people are being murdered, we can continue to oppose child abuse and murder, yet our empathy and compassion can extend beyond the victims and their families, to the wider community, the family of the perpetrators and the perpetrators themselves. If a spokesperson for Treeleaf ever said, "I publicly denounce violence against women", I would stand behind them, provided they were able to do so without lapsing into judging or dehumanising those who have been violent towards women. This is where SFZC went wrong for me. I believe we can oppose child abuse, genocide, racism etc (even up to and including removing a person's liberty), standing up for what we believe, without sacrificing our respect and compassion for those responsible and without losing sight of our shared responsibility for social problems like murder and abuse. I believe this non-judgemental attitude towards others must remain unconditional, even while we're marching against them.

Gassho,
Enjaku,
Sat

[Kyotai]

Thanks Jundo and everyone for this ongoing discussion.

Not to further complicate matters... but I don't think there is ever a problem with one publicly stating one's own opinion, as you say, respectfully and politely. I don't even think there is a problem with a priest at SFZC taking a firm stance in opposing the policies of the president elect. My issue continues to be where people confuse opposing views and actions with judging individuals. If a child is being abused, or people are being murdered, we can continue to oppose child abuse and murder, yet our empathy and compassion can extend beyond the victims and their families, to the wider community, the family of the perpetrators and the perpetrators themselves. If a spokesperson for Treeleaf ever said, "I publicly denounce violence against women", I would stand behind them, provided they were able to do so without lapsing into judging or dehumanising those who have been violent towards women. This is where SFZC went wrong for me. I believe we can oppose child abuse, genocide, racism etc (even up to and including removing a person's liberty), standing up for what we believe, without sacrificing our respect and compassion for those responsible and without losing sight of our shared responsibility for social problems like murder and abuse. I believe this non-judgemental attitude towards others must remain unconditional, even while we're marching against them.

Gassho,
Enjaku,
Sat

Thank you Jundo and Enjaku.

Gassho, Kyotai
ST

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[Tanjin]

It seems to me that we'd do well in this day and age to learn how to disagree without being disagreeable. The art of taking a position and being able to defend it in a principled way has been lost to insults, half-truths, and stubborn refusal to compromise - on all sides of the political spectrum. With that being said, I would hope that here at Treeleaf we could be both open to everyone regardless of their political views, and at the same time require respect and civility in all of our dialogues. Just my two cents.

Gassho,
Tanjin
SatToday

[Diarmuid1]

I felt, and still feel, the same shame and despair with the Brexit result...“You are welcome here despite your act of hatred, just as I am welcome here despite my many and daily acts of hatred. But we will not in the service of “unity” or “empathy” condone or ignore it.” [Treeleaf's statement] would be a credo that many red-in-tooth-and-claw Trump supporter would have trouble signing up to.

Martyn

Hi Martin
I also voted in the Brexit election, but voted against (what I see as) complicity with the European Union's free market, anti-democratic destruction of countries and feel no shame or despair. A modicum of fear, and a little regret...but mainly frustration at the way in which my vote has been interpreted by so many others. Which is why I wanted to pick you up on a couple of things in your post. You talk about what Trump supporters would have trouble in signing up to...but the truth remains that Trump supporters are not a homogeneous mass and it may well be that a lot of them would sign up to Treeleaf's credo (or at least to their understanding of Treeleaf's credo). Maybe not...but the point is that we suffer and inflict indignity on people when we lump them all together under a label.

I also wanted to point out the chasm between "You are welcome here despite your act of hatred, just as I am welcome here despite my many and daily acts of hatred" and "We recognise that we are all guilty of acts of hatred and subsequently everyone is welcome here". Same gist, different words, different message.

In any event, trees are just trees and we can argue about them all we want. As long as we don't believe that our arguments make us any different -better or worse- than the other person, there's probably no harm.