Split Thread: Reception of 'Online' Jukai

[Jishin]

I think that if they don't accept you for who you are than you don't accept them for who they are. Because of this, that. Because of that, this. Buddhism 101. Out of nothing acceptance and no acceptance is created by our minds.

My deluded 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Kokuu]

I think that if they don't accept you for who you are than you don't accept them for who they are.

Hmmm, I am not fond of tit-for-tat. Isn't the Buddha way to hold ourselves to a certain standard regardless of how others behave?

Or maybe that was not how you meant it, Jishin?

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday_

[Jishin]

Split Thread: Reception of 'Online' Jukai

Hmmm, I am not fond of tit-for-tat. Isn't the Buddha way to hold ourselves to a certain standard regardless of how others behave?

Or maybe that was not how you meant it, Jishin?

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday_

They are form vs form. You are form equals form. Not tit for tat. You are simply holding yourself as a mirror reflection of their behavior. You are modeling.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

I think that if they don't accept you for who you are than you don't accept them for who they are. Because of this, that. Because of that, this. Buddhism 101. Out of nothing acceptance and no acceptance is created by our minds.

My deluded 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Who is not accepting whom? Perhaps you are not accepting them?

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jishin]

Split Thread: Reception of 'Online' Jukai

Who is not accepting whom? Perhaps you are not accepting them?

Gassho, J

SatToday

That is true. In my half baked deluded perception they don't accept and I don't accept. No bad intent though. Just mirroring behavior.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Washin]

http://swz-northampton.blogspot.co.u...ar-you_23.html

Thank you for the good read, Kokuu

Gassho
Washin
st

[Kyotai]

I tend to think that when you enter a new Sagnha, you should respect the way they do things.

If they do not accept your dharma name, Raksu color or having undertaken Jukai at Treeleaf....so be it. They SHOULD be skeptical until proven otherwise. I held the same skeptical eye, and I bet a lot of you did too

No need to cling to any achievement or name to validate your practice or what's in your heart.

I have brought my Raksu along to my local sitting group to show them. But I don't wear it outside my house.

Gassho, Kyotai
ST

[Jakuden]

I think being a business owner shocked me into the reality of why, as the leader of a organization, you are forced to make certain decisions about rules that apply to everyone. It is difficult to understand from other positions. But I've learned the hard way over and over that there is always an individual that tests the boundaries of every rule... I can see where the leader of a monastery, for example, would have to figure out where to draw the line about what to allow in the zendo... Rakusus from other places? Any color? What about robes? What about garb from other sects? Then how about following their own group's rituals, etc if they are wearing their garb? It sounds silly, but I swear that's how it goes when you are dealing with people in an organization. You can try to define every single thing for the sake of simplicity, but there will always be a question that makes you have to define it further. If you just allow anything and try to be tolerant--then the complaints begin. Things don't run smoothly and effort is wasted on a lot of little issues that become disproportionately time consuming... frankly it's all a giant pain in the ass but it's what you sign up for when you run an organization.
So I usually give the benefit of the doubt as to why a rule or policy is what it is. I can bend a little too if it's an organization whose services I find otherwise beneficial.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Kyosei]

You can try to define every single thing for the sake of simplicity, but there will always be a question that makes you have to define it further.

It is said that was why and how the Buddha's created the vinaya code.

I say, in some places rules applies only to unknown/poor/low rank people. Let the titled ones, the Masters, the Roshis, the Papas, cross the doors with all their fancy clothes, rakusus, etc, would the rules applies equally, I guess?

I've been observing throughout my life that the more people have or show they have, the more people show "good will" and respect on showing (and even breaking) rules.
I'm not insinuating or referring to you and your job, my friend, let me put it clear.

I bet we could not differentiate the historical Buddha from any other of his followers, as I bet we could not differentiate Jesus from his disciples, only observing the external signs.

They SHOULD be skeptical until proven otherwise. I held the same skeptical eye, and I bet a lot of you did too

I can understand people can abuse a condition, of course, but if one states clearly that he's still a student, not a teacher...behind their Rakusu's there is scriptions describing where and when that person was initiated... his Dharma name, his Preceptor's name... also, there's the document proving all that... and also, the way of sitting, some understanding of buddhist philosophy, the postures. All of this can be easily observable, I guess...

Then, what should be proved and to who? Why would someone fake the condition of being a buddhist student? (I can conceive people would fake something they admire, they want to reach) and who can claim to know buddhism and that is the utmost authority on Dharma? And if he/she really can, how can he/she preserves equanimity?

I think it would be a much better and beautiful thing to give some credit if one accomplish certain general requirements like the ones I've mentioned.

In this matter, it is becoming very clear to me that people only judge from what they "think" they know or, at best, from the visions or experiences results they insist in cling to. Better to say "don't know" if we don't know. But there's that curious behavior:
Why people insist in judging and condemning without showing, at least, a little more of good will to further investigate and then give an opinion (or allow, or disallow)?

What catches for me in this question is tolerance. Of course we should respect, of course we should always respect, but it doesn't mean we can not question respectfully and state our truth respectfully and stand up for what we believe respectfully.

Of course I'm talking about when we are a visitor, not a regular member of a Sangha.

On visiting a Zen center, would they ask the Dalai Lama to take out his yellow robe because it does not conform to the rules there? and how about a student?

Gassho

Marcos

#SatToday

[Jakuden]

Again,speaking from the position of decision maker, in a large organization it is difficult to allot every single individual the consideration they want just based on time constraints! There are too many things on the manager's desk to give everything immediate attention. The people actually doing the scheduling, running the programs, admitting students and assigning them duties, etc etc all want definitions of who to allow to do what. Trying to guess why someone will want to do something is futile, I discovered, because they will and you won't understand why when it happens, so you try to give people rules and guidelines... if it were me and my manager in charge of a monastery instead of a vet hospital, she would be after me with "ok can you make me a list of what monasteries we allow rakusus from? Do they need to have papers? If so, what kind? Do we let them have Dokusan instead of Daisan since they have taken Jukai? What if they enter halfway through Sesshin and no one has time to check?" Etc, etc ad Infinitum. I'm playing devil's advocate, but I know how it feels to be accused of being judgemental or intolerant when you are really just doing the best you can to keep an organization running and on track.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[JimH]

I actually chuckled out loud when reading some of these responses. This discussion resembles a number of discussions I have had over the years regarding Black Belts in martial arts. The question in those discussions was mainly along the lines of "if you have a karate school, and a practitioner of the same style visits your school and asks to join class, should you allow them to wear their Black Belt/uniform?" Similarly, there was a lot of discussion about "do you need to start over if you have earned a Black Belt in the style, but move and start to attend a new school?"

Personally, I look at it this way: the training is still the same. If you understand the precepts and the teachings, and have accepted Jukai through a valid source (i.e., not a "mail order" type thing!), then you are valid and ok. You shouldn't necessarily have to "start over" and prove yourself again from the first step. That just seems petty and ridiculous. Having said that, however, if you move and attend a different sangha, or if you are attending services as a guest in a new sangha, you should respect their requests and guidelines. I would hope that you would be able to have a private discussion with the priest to discuss your status; if they require Jukai through the new sangha, then the decision is up to you as to whether you stay with the sangha or not.

Bottom line, it's all attachment at some level. You are who you are, and you have the training you have, regardless of who recognizes it....and regardless of what form they recognize it in. My wife was with a school for some time that required their students to "renew" their Black Belts every four years. If the student didn't, the rank was no longer recognized. I've never personally known martial arts ranks to expire....what happens at the end of the four years? Does all your training magically disappear? No, only that school's recognition. Anyone knowledgeable about a given art who sees an advanced practitioner move can tell their level of skill. I think that Zen is the same way: title doesn't matter, recognition of training doesn't matter, the rakusu doesn't even really matter. Have you eaten, and did the person that fed you have eyes?

Gassho--

--JimH (SatToday!)

[Jishin]

The other side of the same sided coin:

I promote the teacher to teacher. The teacher can say he is a teacher all day long, but he is not till I say so. No me, no student, no teacher. Because of this, that. Because of that, this. Its give and take. If its all take, then...

My deluded 2 cents.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Jakuden]

Hello all

I have been chatting to various folk on the Soto Zen group on Facebook and British Zen priest Alasdair Gordon-Finlayson recently posted an article he wrote some time ago about what to do when you have no Zen group near to you:

http://swz-northampton.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/what-to-do-when-theres-no-group-near-you_23.html

In this he is sceptical of online groups but makes particular mention of Treeleaf and his good experience of Jundo. I updated him on the progress of the sangha and he replied that he was glad it was still going strong.

As Jundo says, it is important to be honest about where we took Jukai (and Shukke Tokudo, if appropriate). Some folk will approve, others won't. There is no point in trying to convince the latter but just let your practice speak for itself.

As regards rakusu wearing, I believe it is important to follow whatever instruction you are given at a different Zendo. Their place, their rules whether we agree with them or not!

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Thanks Kokuu, I finally had a chance to read this. Nice to see the positive comments about Jundo and Treeleaf!
Even if one had access to a traditional Sangha, one thing Treeleaf has that I doubt many others do is such easy, direct access to the Teacher's brain! How many years in a monastery would it take doing Dokusan to be able to ask the questions (or look up previous similar ones) we can ask of our teacher in a month? There are definitely valuable lessons to be learned by practicing physically together with other students in a group, but when it comes to teacher-student learning, I think Treeleaf has it all over the other guys. Jundo is not stingy with the Dharma, and we get the benefit!!
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Zenmei]

Thanks Kokuu, I finally had a chance to read this. Nice to see the positive comments about Jundo and Treeleaf!
Even if one had access to a traditional Sangha, one thing Treeleaf has that I doubt many others do is such easy, direct access to the Teacher's brain! How many years in a monastery would it take doing Dokusan to be able to ask the questions (or look up previous similar ones) we can ask of our teacher in a month? There are definitely valuable lessons to be learned by practicing physically together with other students in a group, but when it comes to teacher-student learning, I think Treeleaf has it all over the other guys. Jundo is not stingy with the Dharma, and we get the benefit!!
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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Also, I liked this quote about Jundo:

he seems like a guy who wouldn't tolerate too much nonsense

... or too little nonsense. Just the right amount of nonsense. One reason I love it here

Grasshoppers, Dudley
#sat

[Jundo]

... such easy, direct access to the Teacher's brain!

Oh my. Why do I envision this?!



Brain in one thing, but can one find one's mind!?

Bodhidharma said, "Bring me your mind, and I will put it to rest."

Hui-ke said, "I have really searched for my mind, but I cannot find it."

Bodhidharma said, "There, I have put it completely to rest."

Gassho, J

SatToday