Split Thread: Reception of 'Online' Jukai

[Kyosei]

JUNDO NOTE: I MOVED THIS TO A NEW THREAD FROM OUR 'ZAZENKAI' TALK ON JUKAI THIS WEEK, AS AN INTERESTING TOPIC.

Jundo, thank you for the talk and thanks for the questions (commentary) and answers.

It was very pleasant to listen to all the explanations, perhaps the one that most resonate with me is this one: we're always actualizing, refreshening the ceremony when we put the Precepts into practice. Very beautifully said. Thanks!

Sorry I couldn't be there live, but I have a question; For me, Treeleaf is truly making history with those online Jukai and Shukke Tokudo ceremonies. I would like to ask: do you, previous Jukaiees, felt that he/she was not "recognized" as someone who took Jukai on a "physical" Sangha? I mean: do you tell people you took Jukai on Treeleaf, through an all-online way? what do people say, another priests, other members? How is the acceptance around?

Does the Zen buddhist associations recognizes this kind of ceremonies?

I can imagine what Jundo (and Taigu) went through to stick to this project of spreading the Dharma through online means.

If we show our Rakusu and Kechimyaku to people, or even during a Sesshin, if anyone asks you about how and when was your Jukai ceremony, what do you tell? Or don't you tell anything?

Here in Brasil is kinda "common" that when a stranger shows up (say, in a temple) with a religious garment people asks - politely, of course - what is the person's Dharma name, and maybe goes on asking who is the person's master, where did his Jukai ceremony took place, this kind of things.

There's is no much Zen monks and nuns here in Brasil, I guess, and they are all mostly strict followers of Soto Shu.

Not that it signifies anything other than curiosity for me. I feel part of the Sangha, I studied and sewn a Rakusu. Maybe we're doing this more carefully than some brick and mortar Sangha members do. And from what I'm seeing around, we have here a lot more Buddhist "intellectual" culture, too.

Again, just curiosity. Maybe it is just b*shit.

Looking for sunday.

Gassho

Marcos

#SatToday

[Jundo]

Hi Marcos,

If asked at another Sangha about their Jukai or Rakusu, I would expect people to just answer and explain honestly and completely. There will then be folks who understand and are open to it, and there will be folks who are not. Religion is like that.

One of the most traditional and "Japanese" priests in the United States '(an American long trained in Japan with a very traditional Japanese approach to doing things and closely connected to Soto-shu in Japan), perhaps someone I thought very conservative who I would not expect to be open to our ways very much at all, recently sent a long time student of the priest here for Jukai and more because the priest felt unable to offer what we do with the resources available to their Sangha. The priest sent the student here with full knowledge of our ways, how we conduct things, and all blessings for the future path of the student.

It leads me to the conclusion that people are open more and more to this, but not everyone of course. Those who are open are open ... those not sure are not yet sure ... those who are not open are not open ...

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Jakuden]

Everyone I have discussed Treeleaf with at Zen Mountain Monastery has seemed fascinated by it. They offered to call me by my dharma name, but I didn't see the need for confusion as my given name was already on all their paperwork, lol! I did not ask, but I'm pretty sure they would not want me to wear my Rakusu as it does not fit in with their color scheme (it is green). It seems pretty clear to me (again I did not ask, though) that if I were to wish to be a student of Shugen or Hogen, I would need to formally apply as a student and follow their procedures, including eventually their requirements for Jukai. I am quite content with my own teacher and Sangha though, and they seem very welcoming to me as a guest who visits for Sesshin periodically, so as far as I am concerned it is an ideal arrangement!
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mp]

Hello Marcos,

Thank you for your question ... from a personal view and being an Unsui at Treeleaf, I have not had any bad will or anyone who has disagreed with what we do here. If fact, I have had folks quite happy that such a place is available to them.

Practice is practice and it is different for each and everyone of us. I have to be honest and say that I am not here to debate which, if any, is the best practice ... one has to decide that for themselves. If your practice promotes love, respect, gratitude, peace, openness, acceptance then it sounds like a lovely practice. Whether that practice is shared faced to face or over a technological medium I feel is irrelevant ... is the message of that practice being conveyed? When I meet with you, Jundo, my daughter, or anyone for that matter over the internet I see you. I see your eyes, your smiles, your tears ... how is that any different then being right in front of you? In my view there is not.

Sadly some folks are attached to ideas of what practice is and instead of practicing, sharing, learning, and growing they spend their time judging, criticizing, and condemning. Because of this, I feel, that it is important for us to share what we learn here at Treeleaf and show the world that what we do, what we learn, has value to all sentient beings ... and isn't that what practice is all about. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jundo]

... I did not ask, but I'm pretty sure they would not want me to wear my Rakusu as it does not fit in with their color scheme (it is green).

We have run into that. A few Sangha in the West seem to have developed their own internal color scheme for who is what ... certain color for Sangha members, certain colors for priest, certain color for some rank. This does not exist in Japan like that, and is just something those Communities decided for themself, and even seems to vary from Sangha to Sangha here in the West. Most don't have any color scheme and, anyway, it is not part of the Nyoho-e tradition to assign meaning or ranks to color.

Also, some Sangha in the West are very territorial about Jukai, saying that if one is a member of that Sangha one must undertake Jukai only there. Other (maybe most) Sangha are not like that, and say it is fine to undertake Jukai more than once, perhaps with various Sangha or Communities who have had impact in one's life. Treeleaf is of that latter kind, and I myself have undertaken Jukai 3 or 4 times with various Teachers who were important in my Practice, and I received Rakusu from several Teachers.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Jakuden]

ZMM is picky about their general color scheme. They ask that if you bring your own zafu, that it be black so it matches all the others. [emoji15] I may need to get a black one because sitting Sesshin on the buckwheat ones they have made me really miss my cushy (also green) memory foam Mountain seat, lol. Or maybe then that means I should just deal with it!
I don't really see the difference whether Jukai is "accepted" from one place or another, either way I would think you would be just sitting and chanting and working and listening to dharma talks just like everyone else.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kyosei]

I did not ask, but I'm pretty sure they would not want me to wear my Rakusu as it does not fit in with their color scheme (it is green).

I don't really see the difference whether Jukai is "accepted" from one place or another, either way I would think you would be just sitting and chanting and working and listening to dharma talks just like everyone else.

We have run into that. A few Sangha in the West seem to have developed their own internal color scheme for who is what ... certain color for Sangha members, certain colors for priest, certain color for some rank. This does not exist in Japan like that, and is just something those Communities decided for themself, and even seems to vary from Sangha to Sangha here in the West. Most don't have any color scheme and, anyway, it is not part of the Nyoho-e tradition to assign meaning or ranks to color.

Also, some Sangha in the West are very territorial about Jukai, saying that if one is a member of that Sangha one must undertake Jukai only there. Other (maybe most) Sangha are not like that, and say it is fine to undertake Jukai more than once, perhaps with various Sangha or Communities who have had impact in one's life. Treeleaf is of that latter kind, and I myself have undertaken Jukai 3 or 4 times with various Teachers who were important in my Practice, and I received Rakusu from several Teachers.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

I once asked a member of the Sangha that I eventually visit and sit with, about this. She told me better to "keep each thing at its place" because it could "confuse" some people.

Really is like that: why - if you're connected to another teacher, another "scheme", another method, why would people interfere or "like" or "dislike" or "allow" or "prohibit" if you use a Rakusu and have a name which wasn't given by them?

I imagine at other times, when a monk's robe, kesa and bowls was all they got and in some ways represented an identity, and on some other way a conquer, a symbol of dedication, study, if people told someone to take off their kesa because it doesn't fit to the accepted colors on that monastery or temple.

Doesn't it seems like not recognizing, like disregarding and even disrespecting one's choice and own Way?

Regarding the sister I've mentioned before (from the physical Sangha), she asked me "why do you want to use it here?" (she was meaning a Rakusu received on Treeleaf's Jukai). I don't know. Maybe we don't have to use it. It will not affect the things I receive here. It will not affect the way I sit or bow or gassho. But sometimes I think this recognition is important, it make us feel more connected to the Three Treasures, and our ways could benefit from it. So, I ask: why not? why hide? why conform to other's views? etc. Not an easy subject, I guess.

Gassho

Marcos

#SatToday

[Kyosei]

Hello Marcos,

Thank you for your question ... from a personal view and being an Unsui at Treeleaf, I have not had any bad will or anyone who has disagreed with what we do here. If fact, I have had folks quite happy that such a place is available to them.

Practice is practice and it is different for each and everyone of us. I have to be honest and say that I am not here to debate which, if any, is the best practice ... one has to decide that for themselves. If your practice promotes love, respect, gratitude, peace, openness, acceptance then it sounds like a lovely practice. Whether that practice is shared faced to face or over a technological medium I feel is irrelevant ... is the message of that practice being conveyed? When I meet with you, Jundo, my daughter, or anyone for that matter over the internet I see you. I see your eyes, your smiles, your tears ... how is that any different then being right in front of you? In my view there is not.

Sadly some folks are attached to ideas of what practice is and instead of practicing, sharing, learning, and growing they spend their time judging, criticizing, and condemning. Because of this, I feel, that it is important for us to share what we learn here at Treeleaf and show the world that what we do, what we learn, has value to all sentient beings ... and isn't that what practice is all about. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

Thank you for this wise and kind answer, Shingen.



Marcos

#SatToday

[Seido]

I wear my Rakusu when sitting, but sometimes I don't if I am away from it, like a lunch time sitting.

If people I sit with don't like my Rakusu, then it is a valuable lesson for them in their attachment to their own ways.
Of course if they ask nicely, I'll tuck it away. It is a valuable lesson to me in attachment and identity.

Robe of liberation boundless!

Gassho,
Seido
SatToday

[RichardH]

Treeleaf is indeed trailblazing, and I am a convert to Jundo's work. Initially I was a "conservative" when it came to Buddhism online. Having grown up with bricks and mortar sangha, I entered the online Dharma "scene" hopeful, and found a landscape of discussion fora consisting of anonymous voices that were often harsh, and bearing no resemblance in spirit to the offline world I knew. Soon it seemed that the internet was hopelessly without credibility. The idea of a genuine online practice community was very inspiring but seemed unlikely to take shape. Then I met Jundo, and came to know Treeleaf, saw that it is the Sangha forging a real practice community.

However, for me this in not an "online Sangha" but a Sangha that is both online and offline, that includes local "Bricks and mortar" relationships as well. I believe it is important to have this online/offline flowthrough where possible. Taking the Shukke Tokudo in the physical presence of my elder brother Shokai (in his beautiful rock garden) while being connected to sangha around the world in a ceremony presided over by Jundo in Japan, was a beautiful example of this flowthrough, and how the future will look.

As far as acceptance of various Buddhist organizations goes, Jundo is empowered to decide the manner in which we go forward, period. The larger Sangha is evolving, and what is trailblazing today will be normal tomorrow. In the meantime, quite frankly, I do not give it any thought. The buck stops here in this heart with my own speech and conduct going forward. What others make of it is not my business.

Treeleaf is a force for good in the Buddhist world, it is wise to support this work.

Gassho
Daizan
Sat today

[Jundo]

If going to sit with another Sangha and it is asked that you not wear or remove your Rakusu from here or another place ...

... then either remove it and sit with them as requested (when in Rome, sit like a Roman ...), or leave and sit under a tree, or with a different group, or take it off and sit while wearing infinite invisible to the eye Rakusu in one's heart ...

It does not matter so much to me, so long as one sits! All good. Follow one's heart and needs at the moment.

However, what a shame to ask someone to not wear a Rakusu from another Zen group! Generally, the Precepts can be undertaken again and again, a Zen Rakusu can be worn at any Zen group one visits, and is a kind of "passport" of sorts I suppose. I have never run into being asked not to wear a Rakusu at Zazen in all my years in Japan, and I don't think I ever ran into that in America or Europe (although I was just visiting groups, not joining as a long term member. If joining a Community long term, I suppose that it is good and natural to eventually join in the Jukai there and receive a Rakusu and such from that Teacher).

Anyway, it is religion.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jakuden]

[emoji848]Interesting thoughts, and I probably shouldn't even be assuming that wearing my Rakusu wouldn't be allowed. (Now I am curious and I think I will ask.) Either way I carry it with me in my heart at all times whether I wear it or not--I sit with Treeleaf Sangha whether I am at home on my own cushion, in the parking lot in my car before work, or in a brick-and-mortar Monastery!
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Washin]

Hi Marcos,

At the last October sesshin with a Zen group here (Taisen Deshimaru Lineage) I received a lot of questions about Treeleaf. Likewise people asked about my Jukai initiation and I answered that I received it on-line respectively.
They seemed pretty fascinated by the things we do here and how it all works. Not a word otherwise..
The only thing a teacher asked me is to show her the back of my Rakusu in order to see how my Dharma name is spelled correctly. And there was not even a slightest move of the eye brow about the brown colour of my Rakusu as all of the students in that sangha wore muddy black ones.

Gassho
Washin
sattoday

[Jishin]

Split Thread: Reception of 'Online' Jukai

I would wear my Rakusu regardless of what the teacher has to say. If he/she had a real problem with it they don't accept you for who you are. No need to do as the romans do when in Rome. Zen is not about division. Division should not come from the leadership. Romans should do as romans, Marcos should do as Marcos, and everybody should know that even so, the romans and Marcos are the same and not the same at once.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

PS: I would tell them that your dharma name is Marcos if they don't like the one Jundo gave you.

[Kokuu]

Hello all

I have been chatting to various folk on the Soto Zen group on Facebook and British Zen priest Alasdair Gordon-Finlayson recently posted an article he wrote some time ago about what to do when you have no Zen group near to you:

http://swz-northampton.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/what-to-do-when-theres-no-group-near-you_23.html

In this he is sceptical of online groups but makes particular mention of Treeleaf and his good experience of Jundo. I updated him on the progress of the sangha and he replied that he was glad it was still going strong.

As Jundo says, it is important to be honest about where we took Jukai (and Shukke Tokudo, if appropriate). Some folk will approve, others won't. There is no point in trying to convince the latter but just let your practice speak for itself.

As regards rakusu wearing, I believe it is important to follow whatever instruction you are given at a different Zendo. Their place, their rules whether we agree with them or not!

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-