Things I find very interesting

[Ugrok]

Especially since all science is made of language ; it makes it impossible to deliver an "absolute" truth, even if this is a fantasy that some scientist cherish.

Gassho,

Uggy,

Sat Today

[JohnsonCM]

The actual definition of a scientific theory contains a provision that the results can be falsifiable.

[Byrne]

So we won't be learning rain making or fire protection I guess. Bummer. I will have to just sit on that.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Kaishin]

Science can't do what Buddhism does.

It needn't, as it will supercede it, along with all other religions, as well as the human race itself.

[Byrne]

It needn't, as it will supercede it, along with all other religions, as well as the human race itself.

Science is going to replace the human race! I saw a movie about this. THE MACHINES ARE RISING. Oh my.

Gassho

Sat Today

[FaithMoon]

One way that Buddhism is like the scientific method is that in both we understand things through direct experience/observation. If the scriptures say X, that is an hypothesis that we can test with our own practice.

Faith-Moon
st

[Jundo]

One way that Buddhism is like the scientific method is that in both we understand things through direct experience/observation. If the scriptures say X, that is an hypothesis that we can test with our own practice.

Faith-Moon
st

Hi Faith,

I would say yes and no to that. There are some things that we can experience in meditation, or in any religious or spiritual practice, that we may then think are actually the case, yet are not. That does not mean that some of those experiences can't have great meaning for someone, but they can also be delusive for others.

For example, I can think of one case ... many years ago ... of a woman who felt that, during Zazen, the Buddha was "curing" her serious illness. She could hear the Buddha whisper in her ear that it was so. She did not seek medical treatment. A few months later, when the symptoms returned, she found out that she had a medical condition that had become quite serious, but would have been easy to treat if she had spoken to a doctor earlier.

Another person I know sometimes has visions of past lives and various heavens and hells and such during Zazen. He asks me the meaning or my opinion. I tell him that it might be so, that many meditators (including the Buddha himself, it is claimed) had such visions during Zazen. Or, it might just be his mind having a nice dream of such things during Zazen, simply imagination and the mind's creative story. I personally believe it is more likely the latter, but I am not the final word on possibilities. In any case, I told him that if it seems pleasant and informative to him, then it is fine to accept it as a nice and positive experience, maybe something quite wonderful with insights that his subconscious (or the Buddhas) might be trying to tell him as in any dream or vision. Just take it for what it is, whether a true look into another dimension or just a fantasy. Cherish the experience whatever it is and (in our Shikantaza way) neither run toward that or run away. Just watch when it happens, as long as it lasts, then let it go.

On the other hand, such visionary experiences can often turn negative, as when folks try to run toward such experiences, convince themself of all manner of misguided messages and lessons on sacred book/Sutra meanings from what they are seeing and feeling that then guide their life, maybe even create whole sacred books of their own and religious sects based on the vision, then gather followers and try to guide their lives based on the visions. They condemn all who do not share the message as non-believers bound to some hell or the like. The person may set themself up as having some right to judge the insights of others, with a fancy robe and colored hat. All religions, including Christianity, Judaism, the Buddhist religion and Zen Buddhism (and Soto Zen Buddhism), are filled with countless such stories or sects that start just such way. In fact, I would say such cases are more the rule, than the exception, in Buddhism and about every religion I know.

The "tests" we are performing in our own religious Practice can be sometimes very misleading even to ourself. We need to be careful.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Matt]

Meditators have also "intuited" all kinds of mirages, delusions and dreams that are far from anything science is likely to find anywhere ever. Buddhism as a mystical tradition is more apt to be filled with imagined religious fantasy as it is to have accidently discovered quantum mechanics a thousand years ago.

Thank you for this, Jundo. Totally agree.

I do have one question regarding science and Zen. Given that meditation is increasingly being evaluated in controlled studies, do you think Zen practice might change in any way as a result of those studies?

Obviously it would depend on what those results were. However, giving a hypothetical example, if it was proven that a certain way of sitting produced greater benefits do you think the Zen world would be open to change?

I would like to think so. However, I sense that a generic 'mindfulness' practice - while certainly helpful (de-stressing being one example) - misses some of the profound truths in our Zen Buddhist teaching.

Gassho,
Matt
#SatToday

[Kyonin]

Hi all,

Here go my 2 cents which are personal and come from my little deluded mind.

Our practice allows us to sit right in the middle of what science can explain and what spirituality makes us feel. We can agree with newtonian physics and at the same time be aware that Kannon and the Buddha flow through us.

We can sit at the top of Mount Sumeru which at the same time is a doctor's waiting room.

Now about finding similarities between science and Buddhism is fun, but we must be ready for our mind to throw fake stuff at us. It's very easy to feel our practice validated when finding connections that could not be.

What I do is that I simply sit, but also enjoy reading and watching science. And then I sit some more.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Aurkihnowe]

If there is one religion that accords most with the findings of modern science, it would have to be Buddhism....(paraphrase, Albert Einstein)

Gassho

Richard

S@2day

[Byrne]

Now about finding similarities between science and Buddhism is fun, but we must be ready for our mind to throw fake stuff at us. It's very easy to feel our practice validated when finding connections that could not be.

Too easy. I feel that one of the most important jobs of the Sangha is to keep us grounded against this very real problem. The simplicity and directness of Buddhist teachings is so tempting to a know-it-all ego that wants to convince itself that it has it all figured out and wants to show off.

Gassho

Sat Today

[JohnsonCM]

Too easy. I feel that one of the most important jobs of the Sangha is to keep us grounded against this very real problem. The simplicity and directness of Buddhist teachings is so tempting to a know-it-all ego that wants to convince itself that it has it all figured out and wants to show off.

Gassho

Sat Today

I'm not entirely sure how far i agree with the 'simplicity ' of buddhist teachings. look at just this thread. the posts have covered both how simple and direct and how profound and metaphysical buddhism can be. how science validates aspects of buddhist thought which make it important, to science doesn't validates some aspects of buddhist thought so it's unimportant, to science validates some aspects and not others so it's all equally unimportantly important. its exciting, but we must be cautious.

Buddhism can be very difficult at times. in a life where every action has a point - soto zen tells us "just sit". it can be very hard to tell the difference, at times, between profound wisdom, and simply circular talk.