Dropping body and mind ?

[Jundo]

Jim, something rang very right and true in your way of expressing this.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Ryumon]

I'm late to this thread, which has taken several detours. But I have thought about Dogen' idea of dropping mind and body. To me it seems like the borders that surround my "self," and separate "me" from what is around me dissolve. That time itself dissolves and becomes fluid. All this whole everything is just as it was. Nothing special.

Gasho,

Kirk

#sattoday

[Ernstguitar]

Dear Ugrok,

The problem i find behind this is fear. Because fear forces me to grab things with my mind ; for example, for me, an unexplainable pain or sensation in my body leads to fear, it's a reflex, and then i grab the object of fear and can't let it go, thus provoking even more fear, etc etc. It's a vicious cycle. I guess "don't mindgrab the fear itself" could be an answer.

First I have to say, that I am not a nativ american speaker. And I want to give you a good intended answer (I write it, becourse the text sometimes doesn´t show it so clear)


I am working for 20 years as a psychotherapist.
I do zazen since 2009.
I read Dogen and many Zen-books.
And I do try to bring all that together. I want to agree on your idea of "zazen helps me with everything".
It is not very hard to understand, that not the SELF has a poblem. It is your ego and your "body".
But that is not worth to write a reply.
In my very simple mind- set you are right. The SELF cannot be destroyed, neither be sick.
The SELF in my understanding is the light from the film-projector - not the film. So, if you would be fully free of your ego,
if you would be free of any manifestation (that is what I belief on Dogens dropping of body and mind), then you would be free of any problem. No suffering from mental or physical illness.

Sorry if it gets long, but I do belief that we have to deal with the gap of not being completely free of any manifestation and knowing that it is all becourse of our manifestation.
What I can see is, that zazen helps a lot for many reasons and your point is always true: if you cannot let go, it tells you that you sit with intentions (of your manifestation).
But inbetween I did count my breathing or looked at my posture. I did some simple words or sayings to calm my mind. Then I did sessins and all the little more intensive stuff. There is a certain improvement (whatever it means) and step by step I have more or less cloudy sky.
But slowly.
So, if you are o.k. with your fear as a guide - that can be a long time - it is fine. But sometimes frightening .


to go to the boarder of ethics: whatever kills you, it doesn´t mind your SELF. But as long you have your ego, you will suffer.


all my best wishes to your fear. it is a good indicator for where you are in relation to ease your ego.
sat today

Ernst

[Jishin]

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What ego?

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Ernstguitar]

Yes Jishin,

that´s the problem. What ego?
And..... what is concept, what is self, what is......?
I would use your wordings in this situation: chopping wood and fetching water and having fear.....
The question of this topic was dropping body-and-mind. So lets drop also the content of body and mind
I also belief, that the best way to have a good life is, not to take myself very serious. I know myself (the ego).
If I feel superfine, in that moment I am looking already for leaving that. It is not the good think we look.
It is always the different thing we are curious. So I do not react so much, when the ego wants this or that. (also when I am afraid).


Gassho
Ernst
sattoday

[Jishin]

Dropping body and mind ?

Yes Jishin,

that´s the problem. What ego?
And..... what is concept, what is self, what is......?
I would use your wordings in this situation: chopping wood and fetching water and having fear.....
The question of this topic was dropping body-and-mind. So lets drop also the content of body and mind
I also belief, that the best way to have a good life is, not to take myself very serious. I know myself (the ego).
If I feel superfine, in that moment I am looking already for leaving that. It is not the good think we look.
It is always the different thing we are curious. So I do not react so much, when the ego wants this or that. (also when I am afraid).


Gassho
Ernst
sattoday

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"There was a young man who said though, it seems that I know that I know, but what I would like to see is the I that knows me when I know that I know that I know." - Alan W. Watts

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Ernstguitar]

"There was a young man who said though, it seems that I know that I know, but what I would like to see is the I that knows me when I know that I know that I know." - Alan W. Watts

Did you read A. Damasios book "The Feeling Of What Happens"?
There is a wounderful description about the brain and the different levels of consciousness and awareness.What he says is, that you cannot catch the observer, but if you "turn your head fast enough" you may see a shadow of the I. .

A good idea from Nisargadata was "trying to observe the observer".
But no idea of "I know it", or something. Just daily life obsticals. Day by day.

Today it is hard to fetch water. A cold dark morning with some snow perhaps....

Gassho
Ernst

sattoday

[Jishin]

Today it is hard to fetch water. A cold dark morning with some snow perhaps....

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[emoji2]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[MyoHo]

So mutch to do. So bussy with this and that. Drop not drop, do notdo. Fear not fear. My dear friend, its like a glass of water filled with sand. If you keep stirring it, it will never become clear. Just set the glass down and watch. Take a zafu, take a seat and watch . You can do it! Yes you can

Gassho

Myoho

sat today

[Tai Shi]

Well, since the great pain will never go away, I am walking through it, and sometimes I feel like it is the easiest, and then it is the hardest because I feel great emotion, and emotion is the enemy of pain, so I shall cry, and laugh, and smile, and practice Zazen, sitting, just sitting. And sometimes this pain comes on for no reason, so what shall I feel? One thing is clear, you Jishin have not been to the coffee shop, and I wonder now if it was your way of saying good bye to Fugen? And what has happened as the tea party collapsed into coffee, and the meal verse, and now so much formality, and lovely sentiments about Star Trek and lovely world wide discussions go to only discussion of Buddhism, and isn't Buddhism everything? Or is ti nothing? AND why are not more people coming to coffee shop?

[Ugrok]

A few ideas as i keep on practicing. What i noticed is that "dropping body and mind" cannot be an idea, a thought. I think i made that mistake. Sitting in emotional turmoil, for example, i would say to myself "well, this is not me, i'm not this suffering". Somehow i believed in the mind being dropped like that : i consciously tried to disengage from feelings and emotions. This is a mistake, as i found out, because when you do this, you still suffer, and this suffering fights with your image of perfect, detached, dropped-body-and-mind type of guy, thus creating more suffering.

Nowadays i think dropping body and mind is just sitting with the body and the mind not being dropped at all.

Gassho,

Uggy,
Sat Today

[Jishin]

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Attachment to method creates suffering yet we must attach to something.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_