Dropping body and mind ?

[Jishin]

Go to a psychiatrist. They are trained in psychopharmacology and psychotherapy. They can help you decide which modality of treatment is right for you. One, the other or both.

Medications restore normal levels of neurotransmitters. They do not add to normal levels. Not like drugs of abuse where chemicals are added to normal levels.

Talk to a pro.

My 2 cants.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Ugrok]

Hehe, I am already seeing one, have been since "it" started again a few months ago.

But thanks for the advice/concern anyway !

Gassho,
Uggy,
Sat Today

[Jakuden]

Thanks a lot Johnson. Well i've been in and out of those GAD anxiety periods for all my life since i was 7 or 8, been in therapy for years, took meds, read almost everything about it, and begun practicing zazen because of it. Those last two years were almost symptom free, without any meds or external help or, to be more precise, they did not disturb me at all anymore, and i thought i had finally nailed it and i could live a life free from anxiety. Then wham, it started again in november.

Now i know i have all the tools to get out of it, as i did it before ; i know it's possible to get out of it ; i know how to behave (ie not stopping doing anything because of it) ; but still it's so frustrating to go through that stupid thing again, i thought that was behind me. My mistake, i think, was to make zazen and all the things i did to have a "normal" life a protection against anxiety. It was as if "as long as i was practicing zazen, i'll be anxiety free". Which i already knew was false, but still i somewhere believed it.

Now it's kind of falling apart. Guess it's time to accept that no, i'm not a superhuman with superpowers and that i have problems too, as everyone else.

Right now anxiety just manifests in the inability to take a deep breathe, which is scary but manageable (been to the doc, i'm in perfect health). It does not make me hide at home, i don't let it take over my life as i did before : i run, i practice aikido, i work, all as normal. It's just so annoying to always be obsessed by stupid stuff like your own breathing, as the more you obsess, the more the symptom increases, and you cannot just decide not to obsess !

That's why i'm really interested in dropping body-mind ; i'm so tired of being dragged and played a fool by it !

Gassho,

Ugrok
Sat Today

No real advice here Uggy but I can tell you I relate to your struggles. I have anxiety and depression, in my case it has been the depression part that was the biggest struggle from a young age. I have taken to considering myself "in remission" rather than done with them altogether, so I don't get too attached to the idea that I will never have symptoms again... if you get too attached to the idea that they will be gone forever, that just adds more angst when they come around and knock on the door. Anxiety is a regular visitor at my door, and while I don't invite it in for tea anymore, I also don't try to chase it away. I either stay present with just the feeling, or allow myself to become occupied with helping others if I can. And in a worst case scenario, I muddle through until I can find time to go off and sit or chant, and don't give in to the fear that I can't make it through until then. As you said, the more you resist it the worse it gets!
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday

[Kaishin]

Hello Jishin,

Thanks for the information, even if, as you might have read in the post before yours, i know this stuff about anxiety for a long time ! I'm not a firm believer in medication, i know in the US there is a strong "chemical" culture around psychological issues ; it does not quite fit with my experience with anxiety, nor with how i see life and human beings. In the past i went several times from "total anxiety for months" to "free of symptoms for years" without any medication. And most CBT therapists (i've seen a few), for example, even if they do sometimes prescribe medication to alleviate the symptoms while you are learning how to deal with them, really advocate that you should not rely on medication to treat anxiety (i'm not talking about mood disorders or PTSD which i don't know very well).

The problem with generalized anxiety is that the more we try to resist it, the worse it gets - which is why medication is not a long term solution. The more we try to get out of it, the more we sink. It's like quicksands. It makes sense : anxiety symptoms are a reflex reaction from our body to protect us from an imaginary danger (which can be a suppressed emotion) ; if we begin to fear the symptoms of the protection mechanism itself, then it just reinforces itself, the symptoms increase, we fear them even more, etc. etc., and we enter a vicious cycle... As i found out during my "anxious career" (hahah), "techniques" or "sayings" don't work because the more you have the goal to get rid of anxiety, the more it grows : of course, we are fighting our own defense system ! It's a fight we cannot win and this fight has to be abandoned. The problem is that, since it feels so bad and since most anxiety sufferers are somehow typical control freaks, our natural reflex is to try to get rid of it by all means, when the way out is the complete opposite : inviting the symptoms and staying with them without rejection !

This is why lots of anxiety therapists now (well, it started in the 70's with the works of Claire Weekes but there is a renewed interest in those therapies) work with acceptance therapies (basically : understand what's happening and leave it alone and live your life). And zazen, and dropping body and mind, fit right into it : when you stop resisting, then you stop reinforcing the cycle. Basically, you stop fearing the fear, you let fear be fear, and it runs its course naturally.

Which is somehow right into the subject of dropping "body and mind", hahah !

Gassho,

Uggy

Sat today

Everyone is different, but I think the anti-medication culture is just as dangerous as the over-medicated culture.

I would be dead without the treatment I receive(d), including SSRI anti-anxiety Rx. I have been taking it for over 6 years and expect to continue for the rest of my life (in different forms perhaps). It has improved my quality of life 1000000000%. More than that really, I was basically non-functional.

There is TOO much fear of medication. You must find a good doctor, and trust results. You are not defective if you are on Rx.

Don't expect Zen to "cure" you.

108 bows to Buddha. 108 bows to SSRIs. 108 bows to benzodiazepines.

[Ugrok]

Hello ! Glad that you found your solution !

I agree that being blindly "anti medication" is not a good thing.

I disagree about zazen. IT CURES EVERYTHING ! LET ME BELIEVE !

Ahahaha !

Gassho,
Uggy
Sat today

[Jundo]

I disagree about zazen. IT CURES EVERYTHING ! LET ME BELIEVE !

Even I don't believe that!

Zazen teaches us that there is nothing in need of fixing from the start, no teeth and nothing to bite.

Yet, when one has a bad aching tooth, one goes to a dentist ... not a Zen Master or the Zafu.

Gassho, J

SatToday, dental checkup next week

[Jishin]

Dropping body and mind ?

Hello ! Glad that you found your solution !

I agree that being blindly "anti medication" is not a good thing.

I disagree about zazen. IT CURES EVERYTHING ! LET ME BELIEVE !

Ahahaha !

Gassho,
Uggy
Sat today

Zazen awakens you to the fact that there are pharmaceutical grade medications that underwent millions/billions of dollars of testing on humans before made available to physicians who trained 24 years before being able to prescribe them.

What has your physician recommended to you regarding the appropriate treatment for your conditions and are you compliant with the treatment recommendations?

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Ugrok]

Zazen awakens you to the fact that there are pharmaceutical grade medications that underwent millions/billions of dollars of testing on humans before made available to physicians who trained 24 years before being able to prescribe them.

Hello !


Haha, well, what i quoted above is exactly the kind of argument that can also be used against medication (btw this is one of the most frequent debate / flame war on internet forums - maybe we are doing "non skillfull" talking right now cause i doubt anything good will come out of it)... I don't know about the US, but here in France, pharmaceuticals companies OWN health. That means that they have the indirect power, for example, to name new diseases. They invite doctors (i have a few very close relatives that are doctors) regularly to meetings (preferably in some cool place). In the US, i think the DSM 4, for example, which is the "bible" of mental disorders, is a good example of the "mental medicalisation" of our societies. It is subject to lots of huge debates here. The interest of "billions of dollars of investment" is in making everything a disease, and "mental diseases" are perfect for this. If anyone reads the DSM 4, he finds that he has 30 mental illnesses. I think there are real arguments for being dubious about medication and "common mental health problems" - by that i mean common anxiety disorders, mild depression, and so on. Not to mention the plethora of articles that show that in most frequent and mild cases of anxiety or depression - which is the majority of what doctors see, pills don't give a better result than exercising.

On the other hand, medication is a blessing when you go through a crisis or when you have a really serious mental condition like schizophrenia or psychotic states ; benzos can really help in case of strong anxiety ; antidepressants allow people who could not work anymore, to come back in social life, etc. I'm not denying that medication is a useful tool ; just saying that in our societies it has become "the" answer to every problem we have, not only in mental health but also in lots of other health issues (for example, it has been shown than most of the medication for when you have a "cold" is totally useless - yet it sells by billions). And it's really convenient : you put labels on people, lots of them, and you make sure they stay in those labels, and they all have problems but thanks to medication society continues to work flawlessly. Well, there are 40 millions americans (6%) who suffer from anxiety disorders. Maybe this proves that this approach does not work and that the problem maybe is in the way that people are treated and raised. But it's another debate.

My psychiatrist (thanks for your concern by the way, even if that's kind of an intrusive question you're asking, i know it comes from the heart) prescribed me benzos for hard anxiety moments, and said to me that i could use them punctually when i felt bad ; he said that, otherwise, i had all the tools to deal with this. I follow his advice, yes.

In the end, as said beforee in the conversation, the point is finding what works for you ; "whatever works", as Woody Allen titled one of his movies !

PS : there is a really good book from a scientist who worked on the first antidepressants, it's called "the molecules of emotion". It's really interesting, especially the end. A good read for anyone interested in those questions : https://www.amazon.com/Molecules-Emo.../dp/0684846349.

PPS : damn, sorry, the thread has become a good example of what "dropping body and mind" IS NOT ! Haha !

Gassho,

Uggy

Sat today

[Myosha]

Hey Uggy,

Thank you for the book link.

"Reality - What a concept!" R. Williams (consult the pro. who prescribed because stopping can be deadly).

MERRY HAPPY NEW YEAR to all!


Gassho
Myosha
sat today

[Jishin]

Hello !


Haha, well, what i quoted above is exactly the kind of argument that can also be used against medication (btw this is one of the most frequent debate / flame war on internet forums - maybe we are doing "non skillfull" talking right now cause i doubt anything good will come out of it)... I don't know about the US, but here in France, pharmaceuticals companies OWN health. That means that they have the indirect power, for example, to name new diseases. They invite doctors (i have a few very close relatives that are doctors) regularly to meetings (preferably in some cool place). In the US, i think the DSM 4, for example, which is the "bible" of mental disorders, is a good example of the "mental medicalisation" of our societies. It is subject to lots of huge debates here. The interest of "billions of dollars of investment" is in making everything a disease, and "mental diseases" are perfect for this. If anyone reads the DSM 4, he finds that he has 30 mental illnesses. I think there are real arguments for being dubious about medication and "common mental health problems" - by that i mean common anxiety disorders, mild depression, and so on. Not to mention the plethora of articles that show that in most frequent and mild cases of anxiety or depression - which is the majority of what doctors see, pills don't give a better result than exercising.

On the other hand, medication is a blessing when you go through a crisis or when you have a really serious mental condition like schizophrenia or psychotic states ; benzos can really help in case of strong anxiety ; antidepressants allow people who could not work anymore, to come back in social life, etc. I'm not denying that medication is a useful tool ; just saying that in our societies it has become "the" answer to every problem we have, not only in mental health but also in lots of other health issues (for example, it has been shown than most of the medication for when you have a "cold" is totally useless - yet it sells by billions). And it's really convenient : you put labels on people, lots of them, and you make sure they stay in those labels, and they all have problems but thanks to medication society continues to work flawlessly. Well, there are 40 millions americans (6%) who suffer from anxiety disorders. Maybe this proves that this approach does not work and that the problem maybe is in the way that people are treated and raised. But it's another debate.

My psychiatrist (thanks for your concern by the way, even if that's kind of an intrusive question you're asking, i know it comes from the heart) prescribed me benzos for hard anxiety moments, and said to me that i could use them punctually when i felt bad ; he said that, otherwise, i had all the tools to deal with this. I follow his advice, yes.

In the end, as said beforee in the conversation, the point is finding what works for you ; "whatever works", as Woody Allen titled one of his movies !

PS : there is a really good book from a scientist who worked on the first antidepressants, it's called "the molecules of emotion". It's really interesting, especially the end. A good read for anyone interested in those questions : https://www.amazon.com/Molecules-Emo.../dp/0684846349.

PPS : damn, sorry, the thread has become a good example of what "dropping body and mind" IS NOT ! Haha !

Gassho,

Uggy

Sat today

When you can't see...

When you can't hear...

When you can't smell...

When you can't touch...

When you lack consciousness..

If you are not chanting the Heart Sutra,

Were do you go?

Chest pain? GERD, Panic attack, heart attack, generalized anxiety?

Can't breathe? Obstruction of the airway, asthma, pneumonia, panic attack, generalized anxiety?

Depressed? Electrolyte imbalance, low/high thyroid, brain tumor, headache, depression?

Abdominal pain? Appendicitis, cancer?

Leg pain? Strain, sprain, closed fracture, open fracture or just Zazen pains?



Cut the crap Uggy.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Ugrok]

Exactly !

Thousands bows,

Uggy
Sat today

[Jishin]

Exactly !

Thousands bows,

Uggy
Sat today

GAD Diagnostic Criteria:

All of the below features must be present in order to make a proper diagnosis of GAD:

Excessive anxiety and worry, occurring more days than not for at least 6 months, concerning a number of events;
The individual finds it difficult to control the worry;
The anxiety and worry are associated with at least three of the following six symptoms (only one item required in children):
Restlessness, feeling keyed up or on edge.
Being easily fatigued
Difficulty concentrating
Irritability
Muscle tension
Sleep disturbance
The anxiety, worry or physical symptoms cause clinically significant distress or impairment in important areas of functioning;
The disturbance is not due to the physiological effects of a substance or medical condition;

The disturbance is not better explained by another medical disorder (American Psychiatric Association, 2013).

Psychiatric difficulties are diagnoses of exclusion. You cannot be a psychiatrist without being a physician who is licensed to prescribe/operate/perform therapy. A psychiatrist can help you with treating your conditions, be it medical, surgical or psychiatric (psychopharmacology/psychotherapy) by way of referral or treating the condition directly.

Please listen to your physician.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Ugrok]

I'm sorry, i don't understand your point. I think you don't read my posts (and we are totally derailing the topic), so i'll stop answering after this one.

1 - I know i have an anxiety issue ! I don't know if that's what you mean by that list of "official" symptoms (of which i only check for 2, yay - but only because it is an incomplete list), but I'm not denying it - as i wrote several times, it has been on and off with me during my whole life ! This is, again, a subject i know very well - i've been studying it for years.
2 - As i told you, i'm following my psychiatrist's advice !

That's why i don't understand what you mean by that last post ?

Gassho,

Uggy,

Sat today

[Jishin]

I'm sorry, i don't understand your point. I think you don't read my posts (and we are totally derailing the topic), so i'll stop answering after this one.

1 - I know i have an anxiety issue ! I don't know if that's what you mean by that list of "official" symptoms (of which i only check for 2, yay - but only because it is an incomplete list), but I'm not denying it - as i wrote several times, it has been on and off with me during my whole life ! This is, again, a subject i know very well - i've been studying it for years.
2 - As i told you, i'm following my psychiatrist's advice !

That's why i don't understand what you mean by that last post ?

Gassho,

Uggy,

Sat today

Hi Ugrok,

I am glad that you are following your psychiatrist's advice.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[JimH]

Hi, Ugrok!

I'm a bit of a latecomer to this conversation, but I look at it this way: "mind and body dropping away" is just unfocusing on things when you enter the zazen state. This is not just sitting on the zafu, but doing samu, working in general, walking meditation, etc. When you slow down and relax focus on what is going on around you and observe what is going on inside you, you start to see mind and body drop away.

"Dropping away" is, in my opinion, when you aren't focusing on these things, and you let them take care of themselves for a short time. In zazen, you are not consciously thinking about your body or mind, so they can "drop off". Kind of like how I sometimes forget where my sunglasses are, and they are sitting on top of my head!

I always visualize this quote when I think about letting go of mind and body:

“Come to the edge," he said.
"We can't, we're afraid!" they responded.
"Come to the edge," he said.
"We can't, We will fall!" they responded.
"Come to the edge," he said.
And so they came.
And he pushed them.
And they flew.”


― Guillaume Apollinaire

Gassho--

--JimH (SatToday!)