Dropping body and mind ?

[themonk614]

These experiences can be light and deep and beyond light or deep. They can be most profound and enveloping .... HOWEVER, that does not matter because, generally in Soto, we consider all such experiences as passing scenery ... just a visit to the wonders of the Grand Canyon. One cannot stay there, as lovely as it is. Nice and educational place to visit ... would not, should not, could not truly live there. One can even live perfectly well never having visited the vast Canyon at all. The most important thing is to get on the bus, get on with the trip, get on with life from there. In our Soto Way, the WHOLE TRIP is Enlightenment when realized as such (that is the True "Kensho"!) ... not some momentary stop or passing scene or some final destination. ...

For Soto Folks, when we realize such ... every moment of the Buddha-Bus trip, the scenery out the windows (both what we encounter as beautiful and what appears ugly), the moments of good health and moments of passing illness, the highway, the seats and windows, all the other passengers on the Bus who appear to be riding with us, when we board and someday when we are let off ... the whole Trip ... is all the Buddha-Bus, all Enlightenment and Kensho, all the "destination" beyond "coming" or "going" or "getting there", when realized as such (Kensho). This ride is what we make it.

In a nutshell, a wondrous and important experience perhaps, but in "Zen Enlightenment" one comes to realize that even this ordinary, dusty, confining, sometimes joyous and sometimes ugly world is just as miraculous, wondrous, and "holy" as anything like that. ...


In the violence, ugliness, anger, greed and clutching, divisive thoughts and frictions of the world, this fact can be hidden, so hard to see. Thus, a key aspect of our Practice is to see and live free of the violence, anger, greed, clutching and all the rest to see this fact more clearly ... and even to realize it was there all along, though so hidden by the storm. ...

... The “ordinary and mundane” is never ordinary. Every moment and any encounter, each breeze and blade of grass is special, sacred, a jewel in Indra’s Net. Thus, I do not mean to lower the import of Kensho in the least, but just to RAISE UP all of life, and every instant of practice, to one and the same par with Kensho, for such is the wholeness, intimacy, unity that is KENSHO’d in KENSHO.
.
Realizing that fact – that the most “ordinary” is sacred and whole and unbroken – is at the heart of Kensho! Failing to see Kensho as extraordinary insight into the extra-ordinariness and sacredness of both the sacred and ordinary is not to see “Kensho.”

Beautiful!

This reminds me of the dialogue between Joshu and Nansen in Case 19 of The Gateless Gate:

Joshu: What is the Way?

Nansen: The ordinary mind is the Way.

Yamada Koun Roshi comments:

"Ordinary mind, what is that? It is nothing but our ordinary consciousness, our ordinary everyday life. It is just getting up, washing your face, eating breakfast, going to work, walking, running, laughing, crying; the leaves on the trees, the flowers in the field, whether white, red, or purple; it is birth, it is death. That is the Way. We do not even have to use the word 'mind.' The ordinary is the Way!"

Thank you for sharing, Jundo

Gassho,
Matt

SatToday

[JohnsonCM]

To me, dropping body and mind is saying to drop your ideas of them. Just be, just exist. Your arm doesn't itch, you ARE itch! Until you aren't. And anyway, what itch? What is there to itch? All these questions and statements have one prerequisite: you have to have separated yourself. You have separated your being into 'body' and 'mind'. Into 'itchy' and 'not itchy'. Into 'something' and 'everything else'. Dropping body and mind drops the separation of 'you' from 'other '.

[Ugrok]

This came up also in the end of practice this morning... When you grab something with your mind, it becomes possible for it to die : for example, if you "mindgrab" your outbreathe, then as you do it your outbreathe disappeared, is gone forever with the thought of it. But when you don't grab anything, there is no death nor life.

The problem i find behind this is fear. Because fear forces me to grab things with my mind ; for example, for me, an unexplainable pain or sensation in my body leads to fear, it's a reflex, and then i grab the object of fear and can't let it go, thus provoking even more fear, etc etc. It's a vicious cycle. I guess "don't mindgrab the fear itself" could be an answer.

Gassho,

Uggy
Sat Today "not mindgrabbing"

[Jundo]

This came up also in the end of practice this morning... When you grab something with your mind, it becomes possible for it to die : for example, if you "mindgrab" your outbreathe, then as you do it your outbreathe disappeared, is gone forever with the thought of it. But when you don't grab anything, there is no death nor life.

The problem i find behind this is fear. Because fear forces me to grab things with my mind ; for example, for me, an unexplainable pain or sensation in my body leads to fear, it's a reflex, and then i grab the object of fear and can't let it go, thus provoking even more fear, etc etc. It's a vicious cycle. I guess "don't mindgrab the fear itself" could be an answer.

Gassho,

Uggy
Sat Today "not mindgrabbing"

When I was 8, my uncle tried to teach me swimming. I was so scared, so I grabbed him (he must have had black and blue marks), the side of the pool, my little swim balloon. I guess I was afraid of drowning (in probably one meter of water!)

Now, I relax and just swim. Nothing to grab or fear, water and swimmer as one.

Please enjoy the pool, the water is lovely.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Kyonin]

Hi Ugrok,

In my tiny comprehension, to drop body and mind just means go sit. If your practice is steady and with discipline there will come a time when you are no longer the body and mind.

And as for fears... Fears are just horror movies we project in our minds. And they are just thoughts and ideas. When we sit we drop thoughts and ideas and then fears seem less powerful.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Ugrok]

And as for fears... Fears are just horror movies we project in our minds. And they are just thoughts and ideas. When we sit we drop thoughts and ideas and then fears seem less powerful.

Hello Kyonin !

Well for me fears is not only thoughts and ideas, it's also made of bodily sensations. Tight chest, tight throat, feelings in the stomach area, etc. But i guess it's not something separate from thoughts and ideas, somehow...

Gassho,

Uggy

Sat Today

[Oheso]

When I was 8, my uncle tried to teach me swimming. I was so scared, so I grabbed him (he must have had black and blue marks), the side of the pool, my little swim balloon. I guess I was afraid of drowning (in probably one meter of water!)

Now, I relax and just swim. Nothing to grab or fear, water and swimmer as one.

I can also remember my father teaching me to swim when I was still afraid of the water. I think at that time it came down to just trusting. Trusting him, trusting my buoyancy in the water and my ability to manipulate my body, trusting the apparent ease of others safely enjoying the pool. in the broad daylight even.
it reminds me a little of the psycho-game of letting yourself fall backwards into the arms of another, behind you.

I used to be afraid I might be struck with enlightenment while meditating, like I might attract lightning or something-

gassho, 0
who today, sat

[Mp]

Hello Kyonin !

Well for me fears is not only thoughts and ideas, it's also made of bodily sensations. Tight chest, tight throat, feelings in the stomach area, etc. But i guess it's not something separate from thoughts and ideas, somehow...

Gassho,

Uggy

Sat Today

Hello Ugrok,

Yes you are correct that these bodily sensations may arise during fear, that being said, these bodily sensations are a byproduct of your mind/thoughts.

When we see these thoughts just as they are, as mind theatre, as a form of resistance we can then just allow them to be, to fall away, and be present with life in all its wonder. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jundo]

Hello Kyonin !

Well for me fears is not only thoughts and ideas, it's also made of bodily sensations. Tight chest, tight throat, feelings in the stomach area, etc. But i guess it's not something separate from thoughts and ideas, somehow...

Gassho,

Uggy

Sat Today

You should speak to an anxiety trained psychologist about this, as I doubt it is just Zazen. It is likely an issue otherwise existing in you that is otherwise arising in the quiet moment of Zazen. I would be surprised if that is the only time it is coming up. Are there other triggers?

As I wrote you elsewhere, you need to approach the problem from all fronts.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Ugrok]

Oh no, it's not zazen that triggers it, sorry if i sounded like i meant it was zazen ! In fact sitting zazen is one of the moments of relief !
It's good old generalized anxiety, which i know very well about and manifests on and off during the day. Of course if i sit with anxiety, zazen is anxious as well. Most of the things you can read nowadays about anxiety "treatment" really fits well with zazen : it's all about not struggling against it, not fighting, but accepting and being with it, letting it run its course.

I'm just looking for a way to deal with this, in and out of zazen, and i'm kind of using zazen to explore how this thing works... And also, if i'm honest, as a solution to this problem. After all, it is said that we can end suffering, so that's what i try to do.

Gassho,

Uggy
Sat Today

[JohnsonCM]

I can relate to anxiety. I have generalized anxiety disorder myself. Definitely see someone about it, it can get out of hand without help. But what helps me is to realize that the anxiety is a response from my body, like asthma. Asthma is an exaggerated immune response from the lungs in response to a threat. Nothing you can do but manage the symptoms, avoid triggers, and do what you can. The rest will be what it will be. Same with anxiety, really. Do what you can and thats all you can do. Now fear comes from not wanting pain (physical, emotional, spiritual) or death. Pain is a fact of life, without it we would have no frame of reference for the good stuff. It also ends, either in healing or in death. Death, well....not really much to do about that. Its a fact of like that we aren't getting out of it alive. All you can do is what you can do, and try to enjoy what you can enjoy. Every moment is a gift, and every trial teaches us.

[Jakudo]

I've always thought that "dropping body and mind" is the description of our original body/mind, sometimes experienced during Zazen. It seems, to me at least, at some point in life we convince ourselves, falsely, that body and mind are separate entities. And sometimes, during Zazen, we unlearn this and experience once again original body/mind. Or not....
yep, sat today.

[Ugrok]

Thanks a lot Johnson. Well i've been in and out of those GAD anxiety periods for all my life since i was 7 or 8, been in therapy for years, took meds, read almost everything about it, and begun practicing zazen because of it. Those last two years were almost symptom free, without any meds or external help or, to be more precise, they did not disturb me at all anymore, and i thought i had finally nailed it and i could live a life free from anxiety. Then wham, it started again in november.

Now i know i have all the tools to get out of it, as i did it before ; i know it's possible to get out of it ; i know how to behave (ie not stopping doing anything because of it) ; but still it's so frustrating to go through that stupid thing again, i thought that was behind me. My mistake, i think, was to make zazen and all the things i did to have a "normal" life a protection against anxiety. It was as if "as long as i was practicing zazen, i'll be anxiety free". Which i already knew was false, but still i somewhere believed it.

Now it's kind of falling apart. Guess it's time to accept that no, i'm not a superhuman with superpowers and that i have problems too, as everyone else.

Right now anxiety just manifests in the inability to take a deep breathe, which is scary but manageable (been to the doc, i'm in perfect health). It does not make me hide at home, i don't let it take over my life as i did before : i run, i practice aikido, i work, all as normal. It's just so annoying to always be obsessed by stupid stuff like your own breathing, as the more you obsess, the more the symptom increases, and you cannot just decide not to obsess !

That's why i'm really interested in dropping body-mind ; i'm so tired of being dragged and played a fool by it !

Gassho,

Ugrok
Sat Today

[Jishin]

Hello Kyonin !

Well for me fears is not only thoughts and ideas, it's also made of bodily sensations. Tight chest, tight throat, feelings in the stomach area, etc. But i guess it's not something separate from thoughts and ideas, somehow...

Gassho,

Uggy

Sat Today

You should speak to an anxiety trained psychologist about this, as I doubt it is just Zazen. It is likely an issue otherwise existing in you that is otherwise arising in the quiet moment of Zazen. I would be surprised if that is the only time it is coming up. Are there other triggers?

As I wrote you elsewhere, you need to approach the problem from all fronts.

Gassho, J

SatToday

Oh no, it's not zazen that triggers it, sorry if i sounded like i meant it was zazen ! In fact sitting zazen is one of the moments of relief !
It's good old generalized anxiety, which i know very well about and manifests on and off during the day. Of course if i sit with anxiety, zazen is anxious as well. Most of the things you can read nowadays about anxiety "treatment" really fits well with zazen : it's all about not struggling against it, not fighting, but accepting and being with it, letting it run its course.

I'm just looking for a way to deal with this, in and out of zazen, and i'm kind of using zazen to explore how this thing works... And also, if i'm honest, as a solution to this problem. After all, it is said that we can end suffering, so that's what i try to do.

Gassho,

Uggy
Sat Today

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In essence, from a biological perspective, anything that raises GABA and Serotonin may help with anxiety.

There are a lot of good therapies for anxiety. You should talk to a therapist for these.

In the USA, a good place to start is to see a psychiatrist. Here, psychiatrists are trained to do therapy but usually don't. They focus on psychopharmacology and then refer/defer to therapists to address the therapy component of treatment.

I have been able to treat my generalized anxiety very well with Shikantaza. I have residual difficulties with PTSD and OCD in spite of sitting daily, but I can live with these difficulties without medications for them.

In the case of mood disorders, you should NEVER NEVER NEVER presume that
Shikantaza is enough to address mood disorders without talking to your psychiatrist/psychologist first. Mood disorders can be lethal.

That said, I find Shikantaza extremely beneficial for my mood difficulties. I use it in conjunction with mood medications as prescribed by my physician.

Finally, one sits with no attaining with nothing to attain. Thus, the goal of Shikantaza is not to treat any mental conditions but it just happens to be a side effect of sitting.

My 2 cents.

I hope this helps.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Ugrok]

Hello Jishin,

Thanks for the information, even if, as you might have read in the post before yours, i know this stuff about anxiety for a long time ! I'm not a firm believer in medication, i know in the US there is a strong "chemical" culture around psychological issues ; it does not quite fit with my experience with anxiety, nor with how i see life and human beings. In the past i went several times from "total anxiety for months" to "free of symptoms for years" without any medication. And most CBT therapists (i've seen a few), for example, even if they do sometimes prescribe medication to alleviate the symptoms while you are learning how to deal with them, really advocate that you should not rely on medication to treat anxiety (i'm not talking about mood disorders or PTSD which i don't know very well).

The problem with generalized anxiety is that the more we try to resist it, the worse it gets - which is why medication is not a long term solution. The more we try to get out of it, the more we sink. It's like quicksands. It makes sense : anxiety symptoms are a reflex reaction from our body to protect us from an imaginary danger (which can be a suppressed emotion) ; if we begin to fear the symptoms of the protection mechanism itself, then it just reinforces itself, the symptoms increase, we fear them even more, etc. etc., and we enter a vicious cycle... As i found out during my "anxious career" (hahah), "techniques" or "sayings" don't work because the more you have the goal to get rid of anxiety, the more it grows : of course, we are fighting our own defense system ! It's a fight we cannot win and this fight has to be abandoned. The problem is that, since it feels so bad and since most anxiety sufferers are somehow typical control freaks, our natural reflex is to try to get rid of it by all means, when the way out is the complete opposite : inviting the symptoms and staying with them without rejection !

This is why lots of anxiety therapists now (well, it started in the 70's with the works of Claire Weekes but there is a renewed interest in those therapies) work with acceptance therapies (basically : understand what's happening and leave it alone and live your life). And zazen, and dropping body and mind, fit right into it : when you stop resisting, then you stop reinforcing the cycle. Basically, you stop fearing the fear, you let fear be fear, and it runs its course naturally.

Which is somehow right into the subject of dropping "body and mind", hahah !

Gassho,

Uggy

Sat today