Jukai

[Dojin]

Re: Jukai

i think this is a great idea Hans thank you for suggesting it.
i too think that taking the jukai is not to be done lightly and people should think very very well before committing to such a thing.

[Alberto]

Re: Jukai

May I humbly suggest, that everyone (including myself) should ask him/herself again and again in the weeks leading up to the Jukai, whether they really want to take the precepts in this particular Buddhist school/ Soto lineage. Some people on this forum (I am only guessing here) may really like this Sangha but may be so new to Buddhism and its different manifestations that they may think it's great to do the Jukai here, only to discover three months later, that the Karma-Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism is the real deal for them.

Or Adashyanti, or the Big Mind team (enlightenment in 1 hr, dude!), or Hare Krishna, or what the ... is mu, or scientology, or a polygamous sect.

Regarding mindfulness, is it possible that we're just talking about being the action in the instant (or, as Obi Wan would put it, "let the force guide you so you won't sew your finger to the rakusu"), as opposed to consciously trying to concentrate on being mindful?

There's a couple of plain questions implicit in this discussion. 1) How do you know when it is the right time to take the precepts? 2) Is there really a bad time to take the precepts?

IMHO: 1)when you have no doubts about it, and 2)I don't know. It's not like you need to be a pure human, achieve satori or cut all delusion to go ahead.

Let the wise ones talk:

______________________________ (fill in the blanks)

[chicanobudista]

Re: Jukai

.
May I humbly suggest, that everyone (including myself) should ask him/herself again and again in the weeks leading up to the Jukai, whether they really want to take the precepts in this particular Buddhist school/ Soto lineage. Some people on this forum (I am only guessing here) may really like this Sangha but may be so new to Buddhism and its different manifestations that they may think it's great to do the Jukai here, only to discover three months later, that the Karma-Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism is the real deal for them.

I am pretty much sold on Soto Zen since I was 18. :wink: But your point is a great one. What are the comparative lineages in so far as Soto Zen?

[chicanobudista]

Re: Jukai

Or Adashyanti, or the Big Mind team (enlightenment in 1 hr, dude!), or Hare Krishna, or what the ... is mu, or scientology, or a polygamous sect.

Ooooh. Do we have an option for a la carte Zen? :mrgreen:

I'll have the Soto Zen combo with three wives, two malas, one dorge, and a monthly kensho. :mrgreen:

[Jundo]

Re: Jukai

Hi All,

Hans' point is very well taken. Yes, the Jukai should be done seriously and with great reflection.

Personally, I do not consider it quite the same as getting married (for one, no alimony later if you change your mind), but it is certainly not to be undertaken unless the person truly feels it is right to do so in their heart.

(I will say the following at the risk that it may make some people a little uncomfortable, but please understand the real meaning in what I am saying): It is much like taking a Baptism, in that you can do it any number of times, and it is just a little water and some mumbled words ... but it does mean something profound and should be taken that way by the people involved.

Personally, I do not consider that, by receiving Jukai, you are bound in any way to either me or my particular Lineage of Soto Zen. Again, I would love everyone to be a part of Treeleaf for a long time, and to be part of my Lineage and to feel committed to what we do here, but their are no chains around anybody. On the other hand, it is a commitment within your heart to follow the ways of Buddha, Dogen and Shikantaza, I feel. So, yes, you should make sure it is "right" for you. I suppose that it is a commitment that, so long as you are around Treeleaf, you will follow the ways I teach here ... but I hope you can see by now how I handle that: Many folks practice in a couple of places, with a couple of teachers. As well, In Soto Zen, we generally tend not to chase people to come in, and we do not chase after people who want to leave.

One sure difference from Baptism is that, if you break your commitment later, or do not abide by a Precept, there are no hell fires awaiting you. (At least, I think that there are no hell fires later, being an agnostic on the subject as described on another thread. However, I can not fully guarantee that you will not come back reborn as a fox ).

Folks can take the Jukai training with me and decide at the last minute if they want to go ahead. That is fine with me too.

Finally, Hans' point about not running around from religion to religion, and teacher to teacher, is well taken. Folks should not do this as the flavor of the month. Neither should they be afraid that "something will happen to them" as a repercussion for doing this and changing their mind later.

Yes, taking the Precepts is a serious thing, linking the recipient in a long line of Zen Ancestors, right back to all the Buddhas. It means that you have chosen to follow this Way of life and the teachings of this school. Yes, if you hang around Treeleaf, you should listen to Jundo more often than not ...

... but the meaning of doing this is, ultimately, the meaning you give it inside you. I think.

Did I muddle the situation more?

Gassho, Jundo

[Dojin]

Re: Jukai

Jundo thank you for the clarification.

i personally have given it a lot of thought. at least a year before i ever came to a decision on the subject.
regarding zoto zen, i guess i always felt more akin to soto than rinzai. i think that just being is pretty much what i belive in. just sitting. just walking. just eating. just.... " justing "

[chicanobudista]

Re: Jukai

One sure difference from Baptism is that, if you break your commitment later, or do not abide by a Precept, there are no hell fires awaiting you. (At least, I think that there are no hell fires later, being an agnostic on the subject as described on another thread. However, I can not fully guarantee that you will not come back reborn as a fox ).

Sorry. Trivial question. What is the symbol or meaning behind this statement that I have seen in other Zen forums? I know the Zen story. But. What's wrong with returning as a fox**? :?:



**Being human is cool. But, if reborn, fox doesn't sound that bad. :mrgreen:

[lindabeekeeper]

Re: Jukai

What's wrong with returning as a fox**?

I, personally, like foxes. But I think in Japan, they have rather a bad rap.

Gassho,

Linda

[Jundo]

Re: Jukai

Sorry. Trivial question. What is the symbol or meaning behind this statement that I have seen in other Zen forums? I know the Zen story. But. What's wrong with returning as a fox**? :?:

In China and Japan, they were generally looked upon as intelligent and tricky fellows, often possessing magic powers. In Japan, they were said to possess folks, requiring an exorcism. If you are a Chinese/Japanese fox folklore fan, this is the website for you:

http://kitsune.org/kitsunedotorg.html

Let me also mention that you have stepped into the tangled, arcane, jargon heavy and (I think) often misguided web of academic debate about Dogen's several citations in Shobogenzo of the "Pai-chang's Fox" Koan (Mumonkan Case 2), and the messy, obscure, sometimes tortured theories of scholars regarding exactly what Dogen thought about Karma and Rebirth. Whole books and papers have been written on the subject, several by my friend Prof. Steve Heine, and still nobody knows for sure ...

I will put a couple of citations, but PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK. A good headache may result (making a reading of Zizek look like Dr. Seuss).

The bottom line, I believe, is that, (1) Dogen at heart may well have believed in a pretty traditional and mechanical view of Karma (2) although he usually cited rebirth stories on a more symbolic and inventive level typical of Dogen's jazzy style (3) and he was more interested in Karma in the here and now, than questions of "Rebirth" (4) but whatever the case, his opinions floated around quite a bit over the years, seemingly toward the more literal and traditional as he got older (5) however he might have talked in a literal way about rebirth more to a popular audience than to his monks, perhaps as a way to make his ideas more understandable and attractive, but he spoke that way to monks too (6) in any event, it was not the centerpiece of his philosophy (7) I do not think he knew for sure about such things, and I think he was just a fellow living with a 13th century world-view spitting in the wind about these subjects, and (8) like I said, but will repeat, it is not so important to the heart of his teachings.

http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/pub ... g%2014.pdf

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/putney1.htm

Enjoy!

Gassho, Jundo

[Shindo]

Re: Jukai

Thank you Jundo - I would like to do this. As you say we would have to find a way to balance work & family life whilst undertaking this task.
Kind regards
Jools

[lindabeekeeper]

Re: Jukai

I am looking forward to Jukai, too.

Gassho,

Linda