Fear of death

[Ugrok]

Hello !

During zazen nowadays my thoughts always go to my unavoidable fate : one day, all of this will stop. It's scary. Any tips?

Gassho
Uggy
Sat today

[Jishin]

http://m.wikihow.com/Overcome-the-Fear-of-Death

You go to sleep and wake every day. One day you go to sleep and? No biggie.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Kyotai]

Yes. Face it. When it is scary, allow the fear to come, explore it, but don't feed it. When the right moment comes, let it go. Do the same when you feel overwhelming joy and happiness.

Gassho, Kyotai
ST

[RichardH]

Any tips?

Die.


When the time comes, things take care of themselves. Besides, if there was no "death", we would be up to our armpits in stuff. ....and... who or what dies?

Gassho
Daizan

sat today

[themonk614]

Fear of death

Since i was struck with chronic illness 14 years ago, i ihave been coming to terms with my mortality. Illness has a way of letting you face the fact of impermanence. There is not a day that passes that i don't think about death.

Kyotai is right: We just have to face it. Explore it. Accept it. Let go of it.

Just today i read this article:

https://parabola.org/2016/02/29/learning-die-brother-david-steindl-rast/

Though written by a Christian monastic, Br. David Steindl Rast, his approach is very Zen-like. That doesn't surprise me, because Br. David is one of the pioneers in the Zen-Christian dialogue.

"Whenever we give ourselves to whatever presents itself instead of grasping and holding it, we flow with it. We do not arrest the flow of reality, we do not try to possess, we do not try to hold back, but we let go, and everything is alive as long as we let it go." --Bro. David Steindl Rast

I hope this helps.

Gassho,
Matt

SatToday



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[Jundo]

Get over it. You are going to die someday. Maybe today, maybe yesterday, maybe 200 years from now.

Happy New Year. It could be your last.

This is lovely advice ...

"Whenever we give ourselves to whatever presents itself instead of grasping and holding it, we flow with it. We do not arrest the flow of reality, we do not try to possess, we do not try to hold back, but we let go, and everything is alive as long as we let it go." --Bro. David Steindl Rast

(If this is a sign of some other psychological issues surfacing, Ugrok, best to talk to a psychologist soon. Otherwise it is a form of hypochondria.)

Reminds me of an old joke ...

Woman goes to a doctor, points to a mole and says "Doc, I know it is cancer!." Doctor runs a slew of tests, turns out it is just a mole.

Woman is back in 3 months, complains of a headache. "Doctor, I know it is cancer!." Doctor runs every test, finds out it is likely her diet.

Woman is back every few months with chest pains, stomach pains, another mole ... all the same.

Finally, a couple of years later the woman points to yet another mole. Doctor runs tests, turns out that this time is cancer!

"I told you!" says the woman.

A question for you Ugrok? What transcends all life and death? Huh?

A monk asked Dasui, "When the fire at the end of an aeon rages through and the whole universe is destroyed, is this destroyed, or not?"
Dasui said, "Destroyed."
The monk said, "Then it goes along with that?"
Dasui said, "It goes along with that."
The monk asked Longji, "When the fire ending the aeon rages through and the whole universe is destroyed, is this destroyed or not?"
Longji said, "Not destroyed."
The monk said, "Why is it not destroyed?"
Longji said, "Because it is the same as the universe."

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Mp]

To overcome fear is to face fear ...fear is just a construct within the mind, nothing more. The more attention you give it, the bigger it becomes. Just remind yourself ... You don't mind, as it does not matter. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Eishuu]

Not sure if this is helpful, but at the end of the day it's just another thought in Zazen. Don't give it any special attention. What death is or isn't is beyond the grasp of our ego anyway. And if anything is going to give you answers or another perspective on it, it's sitting. I've had to wrestle with this for a lot of my life, and I've found Zazen has loosened the fear to some extent. Also, it's good motivation to practice.

Gassho
Lucy
sat today

[Jundo]

It is natural to fear death. It is hard wired into our brains by Darwin's system of "survival" which, one might note, results in creatures fearing death generally having a better chance of not dying and passing their genes on to future generations than the fearless! I very much doubt ... even if he developed great mastery over it ... that the Buddha himself was free of all fear of death, because it is hard wired into us.

But there is no need to be a prisoner of one's fears. We also learn that there is a right time for our reasonable fears ... so I buckle up in the car, go to the hospital when sick, avoid tigers (I just read a diary about an old Buddhist monk who, 1500 years ago, walked from China to India ... but made sure to avoid places where robbers, tigers and dragons were said to lurk!).

We learn to let the present be the present ... and the future the future.

When it is time to be chased by a tiger, just run! When the tiger catches you ... well, there is this old saw (there are many variations) ...

Once, a young monk was sent forth from the monastery to carry a message to another monastery far away. As he walked through the dense forest, he caught glimpses of orange fur in the dappled shade and heard low growls. Surmising that he was being stalked by a tiger, he quickened his steps, but the large cat easily kept pace with him. Fear gnawed at the young monk, and he began to run blindly through the trees, leaving the path he knew in an attempt to outdistance the hungry cat whose panting breath he could feel upon his neck.

The monk lost his way, and to his terror, found himself at the edge of a great precipice. Behind him, he heard the tiger stop, and begin pacing back and forth among the trees, its golden eyes glinting among the leaves. Shaking, the monk looked down and saw that there were vines clambering over the jagged rocks and he determined to try and climb down them. Just as he swung himself over the cliff, and began clambering down the vines which creaked under his weight, he heard the tiger roar, and saw it stare balefully down at him from above.

From below cane an answering roar, and the monk startled and looked down to see a second tiger, pacing along the stones that lined the bottom of the cliff face, waiting for him to descend.

Shuddering, the young monk closed his eyes and clung to the vine, his only means of support. The sound of nibbling teeth caught his attention and he opened his eyes to see a mouse chewing at the vine that held him suspended between the hungry cats.

Next to the mouse, he saw a flash of red.

A wild strawberry grew in a crevice of the stone, and a lone fruit shone invitingly.

The monk reached out, and plucking the crimson fruit, held it to his nose. The sweet fragrance rushed into his nostrils as the last bit of the vine gave way and the monk began to fall. As he plummeted toward the tiger, the monk popped the strawberry in his mouth, and the flavor was the sweetest thing he had ever experienced.

Dogen (now dead ... but only in a manner of speaking!) had his own tunes to play on the theme of life and death. It was something like "What birth what death? All is Buddha! Yet there is birth and death! Even Buddha kicks the bucket! Do not think that life becomes death ... because when one is that is what is, life is life and death wholly death. So, don't look away and, when your time come to die, just drop dead or die trying!" This is from his talk in the Shobogenzo called Shoji ... Birth and Death ...

"Because a buddha is in birth and death, there is no birth and death."

It is also said, "Because a buddha is not in birth and death, a buddha is not deluded by birth and death."

These statements are the essence of the words of the two Zen masters Jiashan and Dingshan. You should certainly not neglect them, because they are the words of those who attained the way.

2

Those who want to be free from birth and death should understand the meaning of these words. If you search for a buddha outside birth and death, it will be like trying to go to the southern country of Yue with our spear heading towards the north, or like trying to see the Big Dipper while you are facing south; you will cause yourself to remain all the more in birth and death and lose the way of emancipation.

Just understand that birth-and-death is itself nirvana. There is nothing such as birth and death to be avoided; there is nothing such as nirvana to be sought. Only when you realize this are you free from birth and death.

3

It is a mistake to suppose that birth turns into death. Birth is a phase that is an entire period of itself, with its own past and future.

For this reason, in buddha-dharma birth is understood as no-birth.*

Death is a phase that is an entire period of itself, with its own past

and future. For this reason, death is understood as no-death.*

In birth there is nothing but birth and in death there is nothing but death. Accordingly, when birth comes, face and actualize birth, and when death comes, face and actualize death. Do not avoid them or desire them.

Birth and death as the experience of nirvana.

4

This birth and death is the life of buddha. If you try to exclude it you will lose the life of buddha. If you cling to it, trying to remain in it, you will also lose the life of buddha, and what remains will be the mere form of buddha. Only when you don’t dislike birth and death or long for them, do you enter buddha’s mind.

However, do not analyze or speak about it. Just set aside your body and mind, forget about them, and throw them into the house of buddha; then all is done by buddha. When you follow this, you are free from birth and death and become a buddha without effort or calculation. Who then continues to think?

5

There is a simple way to become buddha: When you refrain from unwholesome actions, are not attached to birth and death, and are compassionate toward all sentient beings, respectful to seniors and kind to juniors, not excluding or desiring anything, with no designing thoughts or worries, you will be called a buddha. Do not seek anything else.

Translated by Arnold Kotler and Kazuaki Tanahashi.

Gassho, J

SatToday, may die today

[Hoko]

Enjoying this discussion very much.
I can't really offer anything additional except for the observation that, if you really strip everything away from Zen practice one could say that learning to confront the [fear of death/attachment to life ] and practicing the letting go of THIS is the very essence of practice. When confronted with the inevitable (death, taxes, old age & illness) attachment/fear is sewn into the fabric of our DNA. So what an amazing opportunity to practice, right?! "Die on the cushion". Use Jundo's patented zazen "flight simulator" to run your own, personal Kobayashi Maru ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru ) Whatever you call it, just sit.

Brad Warner talks about the fear of death in his books and revisits the subject again in his blog here: http://hardcorezen.blogspot.com/2010...again.html?m=1

I guess at the end of the day there's really only two spiritual paths to approaching death. (1) there is an afterlife (2) I don't know what happens, I've never been dead.
One of the things I love about Zen is that it prefers option 2. And since I never could accept option 1 as anything other than someone else's best guess I didn't see it as a reasonable way to negotiate my way through life.

Anyway, like Jundo said earlier: death sucks, get over it, live in the moment. Perhaps that comes off as trite and yadda yadda yadda's over years of hard practice but that's the gist of it. It's what I tell my kids what with all these celebrities dying lately (George Michael, Carrie Fisher, Debbie Reynolds...) I just shrug and say "people die". I don't know! And like the koan goes "not knowing is most intimate".

Hey, at least you know you're not alone in your fear, eh? It's just you and all sentient beings in the entire universe. 😁

Gassho,
K2
#SatToday

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[Myosha]

Hello,

There's Life } Living (to realize All/Nothing) then } Life (Living & Death is one thing.)

If it's consolation; you won't be there.

Please relax, just sit. And wink at an ugly person. (thanks Benjamin F.!)


Gassho
Myosha
sat today

[Jishin]

Hi,

A couple of thoughts on the subject came to mind:

From Genjokoan

"To study the buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of realization remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly."

"...it is an established way in buddha-dharma to deny that birth turns into death. Accordingly, birth is understood as no-birth. It is an unshakable teaching in Buddha's discourse that death does not turn into birth. Accordingly, death is understood as no-death.

Birth is an expression complete this moment. Death is an expression complete this moment. They are like winter and spring. You do not call winter the beginning of spring, nor summer the end of spring."

From the Heart Sutra:

"In Prajna Paramita, the deep practice of perfect wisdom, perceived the five conditions (skandas) to be empty (boundless) and was free of suffering."

"Thus in emptiness (boundlessness) no form, no sensations, no perception, no formations, no constioness."

"No old age and death, no cessation of old death."

"This is no other than truth...."

Story about Bodhidharma:

Emperor Wu: "I have built many temples, copied innumerable Sutras and ordained many monks since becoming Emperor. Therefore, I ask you what is my merit?"

Bodhidharma: "None whatsoever!"

Emperor Wu: "What then is the most important principle of Buddhism?"

Bodhidharma: "Vast emptiness. Nothing sacred."

Emperor: "Who is this that stands before me?"

Bodhidharma:"I don't know."

Saying in Zen:

"Before I had studied Ch'an for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, and rivers as rivers. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and rivers are not rivers. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and rivers once again as rivers."

______________________________

Maybe when you Zazen you go to no mountains. It is not that there is no Uggy, its just that Uggy has no intrinsic self.

I used to have weird dreams that I was all alone in the Universe. Visual dreams. Me out in space. Nothing but me. They went away.

Don't know if the above makes any sense. It does to me.

Good luck in your journey.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

PS:

I also like this from Song of Myself - Walt Whitman:

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"

[Sekishi]

During zazen nowadays my thoughts always go to my unavoidable fate : one day, all of this will stop. It's scary. Any tips?

Congratulations! You have truly awakened to the deep truth of impermanence / anicca: one of the three marks of existence. All things, physical and mental, are transient! Sometimes this brings us joy (a wound heals, a child grows), sometimes this brings us pain (a dear one dies, the flowers wilt).

As others have said, in our way we turn to face this pain. I've lived much of this life with some level of anxiety (sometimes very high levels of it) about sickness and death. Words will not banish it. It cannot be obscured with food, or music, or material goods. It cannot be run from. Trying to discuss it with others inevitably results in glib and flip responses from those who seem unconcerned.

It brought me to this practice, and I've found that facing it directly, with eyes open and hands together, the only sane path.

Words will NOT banish it, but here are some more words (from previous times this topic has come up):

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14458-Fear-of-death

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14230-Embracing-death

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?13915-How-do-you-to-get-over-the-fear-of-death

Deep bows and much Metta,
Sekishi

#sattoday

[Aurkihnowe]

secular, but perhaps relevant....i posted this on my cousin's facebook account, after trying to reconnect after a few months silence, and finding out she had a serious brush with death....the creator of the show (six feet under), i believe is a buddhist, by the by....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlVqvtfYhZc



s@ 2day

[Aurkihnowe]

my apologies,

i blessed the sun, this morning....try it, instead of ruminating over dread....im not trying to be condescending or minimalize your fears, i fear death many times too, more abstractly as a fear of dying "pointlessly", more viscerally as a jolt when something surprises me...

gassho

Richard

s@ today