Help with zazen : fear of the breathe stopping

[Ugrok]

Hello !

I wonder if some already have had this fear during zazen (i'm quite anxious nowadays, a bit depressed and exhausted, which does not help). But i have this irrational fear that my next breathe won't happen. It never does, of course, or i would not be typing here...

But should i continue practicing ? How to "get rid" of this obsession ?

Thanks a lot for your insights !

Uggy,

Sat Today, apparently breathing

[Taiyo]

This might sound stupid, but I guess the best way to make sure you keep breathing is... breathing. Maybe you're focusing precisely on your breathe too hard and it makes you feel more anxious about it instead of calmer? Actually, you keep breathing even when you don't pay attention to it the same way your heart keeps beating. Do you feel the same fear if you focus on nothing in particular while you sit?

Anyway, nothing to worry about, has your breathe ever stopped so far?

Gassho,
Andoitz.

SatToday.

[Myosha]

Hi Uggy,

You won't stop breathing. The autonomic nervous system (one of Gudo Nishijima's favorites) will kick in. For example, hold your breath till you die = NO ONE CAN DO IT.

Shall one sit?


Gassho
Myosha
sat today

[Ugrok]

Yeah, maybe i focus too much and too strongly on the breathe. I'll try to "just sit" without paying attention to it and i'll see.

Thanks !

Uggy
Sat Today

[Seido]

Hi Uggy,
I think Andoitz and Mysha are right, maybe you're focusing too much on the breath? Maybe if you let your mind rest in your mudra, so that your hand is your focus, rather than the in out of your breath, it will help you to relax and breath naturally.

Gassho,
Seido
SatToday

[Jishin]

Hi Uggy,

Sounds like you are fearing death of the ego during Zazen. Let it shatter. You will be fine. I used to have weird dreams a few years ago that I was all alone in the universe. It turns out I am and it's ok. [emoji3]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_


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[Entai]

Uggy,
Trying to get rid of an obsession is kind of like not thinking of an elephant. The mind does some strange stuff. It generates thoughts and feelings, fears and excitement. Sometimes I think it's just to keep itself entertained. I've had similar breathing fears, etc.

As for anxiety and depression.... That's a different story (in my humble opinion). I have those issues at times and find it necessary to step away from zazen for a while. I know the idea is to watch the thoughts come and go, but if the mind isn't functioning properly there is a potential for problems. According to what you've said, you know it's an irrational fear. Personally, I would step back if the fear becomes too bad. I think it's good to know and accept limitations.

"You do what you can, you can't do much more than that". - George Harrison

Gassho,
Entai
#SatToday

[Kokuu]

Hi Ugrok

Myosha is right - you won't stop breathing. Even when people strangle themselves in an attempt to die, once they pass out the breath re-establishes itself.

I have had a similar experience during meditation for a time of becoming overly interested in my heartbeat. The thing is that we don't normally pay attention to our breath or heartbeat so when we do it can be a bit weird and even disconcerting as we can start wondering if there is going to be a next heartbeat or breath.

I think that the advice to just sit and not focus on the breath is helpful. If you do start obsessing, just see that as a kind of thought and remind yourself that the body breathes all the time without needing your help. If that doesn't work, I have other ideas.

Good wishes and let us know how you go. Your question is not just helping you but anyone else going through similar.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

[Ugrok]

Hello !

Thanks for the answers.

I still practice as usual, and i let these questions come and go as i sit. Not focusing as much on the breathe, but letting everything run its course without any intervention on my part, has been the answer for me. My attitude on the cushion, that helped the most, was "Okay, well, i'm afraid, i might be dying, well, just let it happen if it must". I do not try to control anything, i let the breathe be, everything be without me doing anything to change it. It did not suppress the fear at all, in fact i still felt it, but it allowed me to stay with it without problems.

Of course all of this reveals a fear of death. Maybe it's a good thing to have to face your fears head on, i don't know.

What i learned from this so far is : you don't decide if you live or not. It's not in your hands at all. So why bother with this question ?
Somehow, nowadays i feel that zazen is about life and death. I don't know how to tell it, but when letting everything go, you sort of accept that some things come to an end, naturally. In fact i think i begin to see that a part of me is okay with the fact that it will disappear. It's like my body knows it will. The problems come when "you" oppose this letting go, this feeling of impermanence. There is at the same time something in me that does not want to disappear, it's mostly made of thinking and representations of the future and of the possible pain involved in the process of dying.

It's easier on the cushion than off it, though. Old reflexes come fast and the idea that there could be no next breathe, that it will end, is difficult to accept when it's just thinking. When you go back to the body, it's different...

Sorry, all of this is still quite confused, but even if it's hard, i'm glad to have zazen to be able to tackle these important questions face to face. Maybe i'll grow up from confronting all this.

Gassho,

Uggy,
Sat Today

[Amelia]

Uggy, have had the same fears and anxieties. Some years it is bad, some years it's like I never had anxiety. There are no answers, as far as I have seen. Just zazen and coping. That's life, I guess.

Gassho, sat today

[Zenmei]

Sorry, all of this is still quite confused, but even if it's hard, i'm glad to have zazen to be able to tackle these important questions face to face. Maybe i'll grow up from confronting all this.

I was reading your post thinking about how clearly you've perceived both what's happening to you and how to sit with it. You don't sound very confused at all Thank you for sharing your teaching.

Gassho, dudley
#sat

[Shokai]

There is no good zazen or bad zazen; just your zazen

gassho, Shokai

satToday

[Jakuden]

Maybe i'll grow up from confronting all this.

[emoji23] What a delightful comment, because it is such truth. Confronting the ego is like dealing with a toddler--having tantrums one minute, then scared and vulnerable the next.
We learn when to be firm and when to be loving and kind to ourselves. It reminds me of the recent Koan we discussed about the bamboo shoot: we are both big and small, adult and child, new and old. No fixed self exists, we are both emptiness and the 10,000 things. It sounds like you are becoming aware of this as you sit, and if there were to be a point to Zazen, I think that would be it!
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Ugrok]

What puzzles me is this : are the stupid anxious thoughts coming from anxiety, or is anxiety coming from them ?

Thing is, i could think those same things about death a few weeks ago and not feel anxious at all... So maybe i'm allowing this kind of existential question/fear to be too important, when in fact it only scares me because i'm anxious... Maybe i should just take a break from questioning and i should sit more "lightly".

I'll try !

Gassho,

Uggy,
Sat today

[Seishin]

Uggy

From my limited experience it sounds like you just need to let go. These thoughts sound like a truly dark and stormy clouds in a turbulent sky but remember the blue sky is still there. Does it matter if its anxiety born or thoughts or thoughts born of anxiety, if you don't hold onto them the source becomes irrelevant. Just let them go and allow them to pass.

On the other hand, what does an Englishman sitting in the Normandie country side know. Asseyez Vous