Practising when walking, driving or on the train

[Martpr72]

Hi

I often read (particularly on Insight Timer) that people practice zazen when driving or on the train. I often try to be mindful in these situations, or on my walk to the train station in the morning.... But this doesn't feel the same as zazen. Or is it?

Some help and guidance on how to apply or practice in these situations would be much appreciated.

Gassho
Mart
[emoji120]
Sat2day


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[Kyosei]

Hi Mart, how are you?

I understand this by bringing forth the same "mental state" from when we are sitting on the Zafu to our day-by-day activities. That is, to be "here", to be present on the "here-now" and to be aware and open, letting thoughts pass and bringing our focus, our attention to what we are doing or experiencing right now.

Often I understand Shikantaza as if it is a method, and that the state we "develop" through regular sitting should be brought to all of our activities.

Jundo explains this on the 13th video of the "Beginners" series, take a look:

I often say that true Zazen is not a matter of sitting, standing, walking, running, floating in a pond or flying through the air. ALL OF LIFE, each instant and every action, is “Zazen” when lived as such, with the same vigorous, sincere stance of “attaining non-attaining,” and vibrant “doing non-doing” that we’ve pointed to so many times in this beginners’ series.

That does NOT mean, however,that we can give up “Zazen” on our formal sitting cushion, cross-legged or the like and facing the wall or floor. Please don’t misunderstand!

“All of life” is Zazen — but only – seated Zazen is Zazen, too, and is indispensable. (Please remember that Zen teachers often speak out of both sides of their no-sided mouths). In other words, every moment of the day can be a chance to practice Zazen in its all encompassing meaning, but one must still sit Zazen the old fashioned way as well, quietly letting thoughts go, facing the wall or floor. Do not misunderstand that point.

Still, the fact is that we can and should practice Zazen anywhere. This Practice is not limited by time or place, on or off the cushion. Anything, anywhere, anytime is Zazen if tasted as such.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14883-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%2813%29

Gassho

Marcos

#SatToday

[Jundo]

Hi Mart,

First off, I do not recommend doing anything when driving or operating heavy machinery except that. Please just drive when driving. Safety first. Pulling off to the side of the road and sitting in a parking lot is fine, but do not do anything like that while driving but driving. (Driving is already a kind of Zazen, but that is a topic for another day).

Now, any activity can be Zazen when approached as such. When dropping all goals, yet walking forward down the street to get to your destination (having a destination yet no destination at once, every step total arrival) ... when standing in a crowded bus dropping all judgement and resistance, yet packed in like sardines (in part displeased, yet totally at home) ... when cleaning the filthy windows, all while dropping all idea of "clean" vs. "dirty" (dirty yet not dirty at once) ... all Shikantaza Zazen.

Nonetheless, we should also sit each day on the cushion so as to master that on and off the cushion are not apart.

More on this in two recent additions to our new Beginners Series ...

Sit-a-Long with Jundo: Zazen for Beginners (13)

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14883-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%2813%29

Sit-a-Long with Jundo: Zazen for Beginners (21)

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14875-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%2821%29

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Taiyo]

Hi Mart,

I don't think sitting in a train could ever feel like sitting on your zafu facing a wall, but we can approach any given situation with the same mindset, letting your walk to the train be just perfect as it is. This way, like Jundo and Marcos said, although only seated Zazen is Zazen, everything we encounter is also Zazen

Gassho,
Andoitz.

SatToday.

[Washin]

Hello Mart,

A couple of years ago I read a little book named "Hua-t'ou: A Method of Zen Meditation" by Stuart Lachs. I was so absrobed by the idea of this practice that I began raising my hua-t'ou wherever I found it possible including driving, until, one day I missed the red light a little (it took a sec as usually) and almost hit the back of a guy in front of me. Yes, almost!
I was really fortunate that my car stopped just a few inches behind another...
Since then I use the only one method, as Jundo says, -- when driving just drive.
At the same time Marcos made some good points on bringing the shikantaza mind into our daily activities
which is something different.

Gassho,
Washin
sattoday

[Martpr72]

Thanks everyone. I think I am on the right track but am wondering if thoughts wandering are more acceptable in these situations.

For instance, if sitting on a train... 'There's a woman over there, look at her big coat. She's sitting next to a man with a black coat.' I'd take that as being in the moment and just moving from thought to thought. So it's not the same as 'look at that woman over there. I wonder where she works. There's a man next to her. Are they married? He looks too young for her... Etc etc'.... Which is bringing judgement in to play.

So is the first example letting go and just being in the moment?

Does that make sense? I know I'm being rather analytical... Which probably highlights why I find it hard to let go when not on the cushion! [emoji23]

Gassho
Mart
[emoji120]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

For instance, if sitting on a train... 'There's a woman over there, look at her big coat. She's sitting next to a man with a black coat.' I'd take that as being in the moment and just moving from thought to thought. So it's not the same as 'look at that woman over there. I wonder where she works. There's a man next to her. Are they married? He looks too young for her... Etc etc'.... Which is bringing judgement in to play.

I will tell you my own rule of thumb. If one feels that there are thoughts and events happening, yet it feels as if a light shines through, that they are present yet do not bind, there yet not there, just what they are, not really pulling one in, not tangling us up, somehow okay ... then I believe you will know for yourself.

A couple of years ago I read a little book named "Hua-t'ou: A Method of Zen Meditation" by Stuart Lachs. I was so absrobed by the idea of this practice that I began raising my hua-t'ou wherever I found it possible including driving, until, one day I missed the red light a little (it took a sec as usually) and almost hit the back of a guy in front of me.

Ah, literally seeking to experience "all thing are one" as two physical object occupy the same space.

Thank you. You have proven my contention that Shikantaza is safer than the Koan Introspection method. No need for seatbelts on the Zafu, it already looks like an airbag.

Gassho, J

SatToday (also Zazened all around town a few times)

[Taiyo]

In my opinion, your train situation is comparable to sitting Zazen and noticing your knee hurts a little and accepting is vs thinking "my knee hurts, it sucks, what if it still hurts after I get up from my zafu? I might have to go to the doctor, what if there's something wrong with it and it needs surgery?..."

I don't think this "train Zazen" means you need to go blind and stop seeing what's around you, far from it. It's about being aware of it and embracing it as perfect just the way it is. No other place to be in that moment but sitting in that train, with no other people to see in front of you but that man in his black coat and that woman in her big one.

Of course, I could be completely wrong

Gassho,
Andoitz.

SatToday.

[Jundo]

[Kyosei]

Thanks everyone. I think I am on the right track but am wondering if thoughts wandering are more acceptable in these situations.

For instance, if sitting on a train... 'There's a woman over there, look at her big coat. She's sitting next to a man with a black coat.' I'd take that as being in the moment and just moving from thought to thought. So it's not the same as 'look at that woman over there. I wonder where she works. There's a man next to her. Are they married? He looks too young for her... Etc etc'.... Which is bringing judgement in to play.

So is the first example letting go and just being in the moment?

Does that make sense? I know I'm being rather analytical... Which probably highlights why I find it hard to let go when not on the cushion! [emoji23]

Gassho
Mart
[emoji120]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Mart,

I think so, something like that. That's the way I practice, I mean. But instead of "oh, that woman has a big coat" kind of thought, I just avoid conceptualizing, rather I try to live the direct experience of the moment, not a "woman", nor a "coat" neither "big"; When I start to "rationalize" I just "let it go" (as we do to "thoughts" that arise during Zazen) and return to the immediate experience. Sometimes it seems to me a kind of effort; but I am beginning to realize that the daily practice of Shikantaza puts me in that state naturally, though some days are just ordinary, full of thoughts, worries, etc. I guess through little steps someday we'll realize this presence some more.

By the way, I remembered a book I like very much from Thich Nhat Hahn, in english is called "The Miracle Of Mindfullness". It exemplifies this mental attitude through some stories. A good book for me.

I'd like to remember you that I am just a student here, so take that as my opinions and personal experience on the subject. I know there is lots of people here so much more experienced in realizing the dharma here.

Gassho

Marcos

#SatToday

[Martpr72]

I will tell you my own rule of thumb. If one feels that there are thoughts and events happening, yet it feels as if a light shines through, that they are present yet do not bind, there yet not there, just what they are, not really pulling one in, not tangling us up, somehow okay ... then I believe you will know for yourself.

That took a few readings... but I think I see!

Thank you so much everyone. I'm always amazed at the speed and quality of responses I receive on this forum - from such a truly great community and sangha.

Andoitz - I pretty much think you've hit the nail on the head as to where my mind was going

Marcos - thank you, your words also have struck a chord and I will look for that book.

Gassho
Mart
Sat2Day

[Jakuden]

This was also a little confusing for me when I first joined Treeleaf. It took a while to get sorted out the difference between "mindfulness" and Zazen on the cushion. Now I do both, but do not confuse one with the other. I find that the discipline of sitting, especially when combined with a little ritual like chanting or donning the rakusu, develops a concentration and focus that puts the ego in its place--the small self that is clamoring to be driving, or doing, or talking, or thinking. Mindfulness "feels good" but does not necessarily put you in that place where no mind and no self exists. I still practice mindfulness, but try not to deceive myself about whether I am really practicing, or just letting my small self do what it wants to do and calling it practice.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday... in the parking lot before work

[Jundo]

By the way, I remembered a book I like very much from Thich Nhat Hahn, in english is called "The Miracle Of Mindfullness". It exemplifies this mental attitude through some stories. A good book for me.

Mindfulness Practices such as those I have sometimes heard TNH recommend are not quite the same as Shikantaza. Being aware of the moment or present in the moment is "mindfulness. On the other hand, being totally allowing, complete, fulfilled and whole with the moment, might be how I would describe Shikantaza and the subtle difference.

In Shikantaza, the act of sitting itself (or whatever other action one is undertaking, from walking to washing the windows to being on one's deathbed) is totally complete and whole unto itself, a perfect act, nothing to add or take away, a sacred doing. There is nothing to add nor take away, no place else to be or get to (even as we keep walking cause we need to get to the meeting, or washing as the windows need a cleaning, or taking our medicine to avoid that deathbed as long as possible).

That is a little bit more subtle than simply being aware and present in the moment, if you ask me.

If you are not clear on this "whole and complete doing, each step a total arrival, sacred" aspect of Shikantaza, please watch the new Beginners series.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?121-A-SERIES-OF-TALKS-FOR-NEW-FOLKS-%28NEW%29

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Kyosei]

Mindfulness Practices such as those I have sometimes heard TNH recommend are not quite the same as Shikantaza. Being aware of the moment or present in the moment is "mindfulness. On the other hand, being totally allowing, complete, fulfilled and whole with the moment, might be how I would describe Shikantaza and the subtle difference.

In Shikantaza, the act of sitting itself (or whatever other action one is undertaking, from walking to washing the windows to being on one's deathbed) is totally complete and whole unto itself, a perfect act, nothing to add or take away, a sacred doing. There is nothing to add nor take away, no place else to be or get to (even as we keep walking cause we need to get to the meeting, or washing as the windows need a cleaning, or taking our medicine to avoid that deathbed as long as possible).

That is a little bit more subtle than simply being aware and present in the moment, if you ask me.

If you are not clear on this "whole and complete doing, each step a total arrival, sacred" aspect of Shikantaza, please watch the new Beginners series.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?121-A-SERIES-OF-TALKS-FOR-NEW-FOLKS-%28NEW%29

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

Thank you Jundo, I was really taking one thing for the other; as for the videos, I'll gonna watch them again.

Gassho

Marcos

[Kyonin]

Hi Mart,

Sitting zazen is just that. You sit on your zafu and that's all there is to it.

I have found that I can be present and mindful of my thoughts several times during the day, but I guess that's not what you can find in Fukanzazengi.

So, yes, all these people in Insight Timer are mindful for 10 minutes or more during regular day activities. But a little Shikantaza is always welcome

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday