Responsibility and Ownership

[Hoko]

Hi everyone,

So today Brad Warner posted on his blog about "Responsibility and Ownership".
Here is the link:

http://hardcorezen.info/responsibility-and-ownership/4856

(As of right now the website is down, by the way...)

In his blog entry he revisits a topic that he's mentioned a few times in his books and it's one that I've always found engaging.
The gist of it is that we are all each responsible for everything that happens to us all the time.
Even the seemingly random crap that comes into our lives is technically "our fault".
This is a radical concept and not one that the ego likes to accept (like, how can a meteorite be "our fault"?)
But if you break down the barriers between self and other it makes logical sense.

If we are, in fact, the self and universe (not one, not two) then we are the cause and the effect, the subject and the object.
Alternatively, if you accept the concept of karma then one can simply presume that things that happen "to us" are the result of some previous action.

But while I can see how this may be true intellectually I am still practicing to realize it intuitively.
Obviously if this was one's regular mode of thinking it would drastically reduce one's reactivity.
How can you get mad at others if there's no "others" who caused your upset?
This practice-enlightenment of exerting effort to see with the "eyes of inter-being" is our practice, yes?

What I am wondering is: where is he getting this?
Is this a concept that he realized on his own through years of practice?
Is it a logical and intellectual deduction based on the contemplation of self/other and karma as mentioned above?
Or is this based on a Buddhist scripture that I just can't place?

If anyone has any input I'd love to open a dialog and consider it further.
It definitely seems like something worth pursuing.

Thanks for any insight you can offer!
Gassho,
-K2
#SatToday

[Geika]

The way I understand karma is this: whether good or bad, cause and effect has brought about whatever we come across in life. This is interdependence. So, to me, it just makes sense. "Fault" is a loaded word that we take personally.

Gassho, sat today

[Jakuden]

Sometimes it helps me to think of the present moment as the manifestation of all the choices you and your ancestors have made, intertwined with the choices of others in response to the universe universing.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Zenmei]

The google cached version is at http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

Although the tone is about as full-on opposite as you can get, this all struck me as very Thich Nhat Hanh stuff.

What we all don’t realize is that everything is our possession. We have full ownership. And, of course, the converse is true. Everyone and everything in the vast universe owns and possesses us.

This is an expression of interbeing (which is really just a shorthand way of saying non-self, dependent origination, and emptiness). I'm not real comfortable putting it in terms of owning and possessing, I don't find that useful for me, but I can agree that we belong to each other. We should take care of each other. We are inextricably intertwined with each other, and with everything in the universe.

Anyhow, I’ve found that often an organization seems to take on a life of its own and has an agenda of its own that might be very different from what even the people who make up that organization really want. It’s fascinating how this happens. It’s as if the organization is a living entity with its own will. A big enough and powerful enough organization can smash even its own members and begin to act against their wishes and against their interests.

Thay talked a lot about the sangha, and how the sangha was an organism. I think he said the next buddha would be a sangha. A slightly more positive view than Brad's, but at the core there's still the idea that a collective can be a living entity.

One teaching I have found immensely useful is that there are some things that may not be our fault, but they are our responsibility. Thinking in this way sidesteps some of the guilt and shame we may put on ourselves if we always think of things being our "fault".

Gassho,
Dudley
#sat

[Mp]

The way I understand karma is this: whether good or bad, cause and effect has brought about whatever we come across in life. This is interdependence. So, to me, it just makes sense. "Fault" is a loaded word that we take personally.

Gassho, sat today

very nice!

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jundo]

I have to fully agree, yet greatly disagree, with my Brother Brad on this (we can get away with this in Koany Zazen).

There is no "other" and no "you," yes. All that happens might be said to be your responsibility because everyone and everything in the universe is not it and not you from one non-perspective, yes.

And yet, no, you are not responsible for all the things that happen to you. No, that is silly. If a fellow gets drunk, hits a pedestrian properly in the crosswalk with a car, the drunk is responsible ... not the pedestrian. I do not care that, from one perspective, the drunk and pedestrian, car and crosswalk, stars and flowers are one beyond one. If you are a child in Syria and a bomb drops on your house due to some geo-political warfare you cannot even begin to understand, you are not responsible.

Even in traditional views of Karma, we carry responsibility for our volitional acts. Yet there are many things that happen to due to social, environmental, physical, biological, political, chance causes that have nothing to do with Karma.

There have been some traditionalists who said everything that happens is a Karmic payoff (all the victims of the Tsunami drowned due to their Karma, for example) ...

In this world nothing happens to a person that he does not for some reason or other deserve. Usually, men of ordinary intellect cannot comprehend the actual reason or reasons. The definite invisible cause or causes of the visible effect is not necessarily confined to the present life, they may be traced to a proximate or remote past birth.
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma.htm

But even most traditionalist spell out factors of just being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or the victim of some external factor ...

http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma9/karma.html

Sometimes Brad just says stuff. I think he sometimes he pulls some things in his books and essay out of the air. He should be more responsible.

Of course, I do notice a human tendency in the world and in human society to blame all one's problems on others a bit too much. Everyone is a victim. We need to take more personal responsibility and not point so many fingers.

Anyway, that whole essay by Brad with very 'stream of consciousness' and hard to follow. Maybe he didn't even know what he was saying.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Bokusei]

Responsibility and Ownership

At the start of the piece Brad states that every individual is responsible for everything. Ok, so in zen, contradictions are allowed, will try not to get caught up on pointing out the logical confusion of this claim (I think it may come down to a slightly rushed choice of words). At the end of the article Brad is railing against the limitations of his sphere of influence.
How does that work? Am I not being zen enough? How can total responsibility and a limited sphere of influence both be true. Perhaps I'm being too Socratic and not Dogenstic? I enjoy reading and listening to Brad, but this doesn't work for me.



Gassho

saTToday

[Eishuu]

I am really glad you said that Jundo. I have been thinking about this for a while and wondering what the Zen approach was. When I studied early Buddhism I found the earlier ideas about karma easier to relate to: ie that karma is only one of five aspects/niyamas of conditioned coproduction/pratitya samutpada. The others are things like laws governing living things, non-living things, the mind, etc. (Please correct me if I am wrong...I'm a bit fuzzy on this). So for example if there is a big storm and it destroys your house or village, it's not necessarily karma; it could be that there was a big storm because of laws governing the natural world. I found it a big relief as all I'd heard of karma before is that everything that happens to you is the result of your individual karma. I wasn't sure if the attitude to karma was different in Mahayana Buddhism...

I think there's a particular danger with the 'everything is your karma' approach...a kind of 'your karma....your problem' mentality. I've heard people practising Buddhism and Hinduism use the 'it's your karma' approach to be very judgemental and uncompassionate and even victim blaming, which I find quite chilling. I've had that attitude directed toward me about being ill and disabled too and been blamed for my situation repeatedly, which is probably why it's a sensitive and important topic for me. (I realise that even when people do bring about their own suffering, they too deserve compassion and we don't discriminate on the basis of whether the suffering is self-inflicted: suffering is suffering.)

Anyway, not sure if I've managed to express any of that very clearly. Looking forward to reading Brad's article when the site is working again.

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

[Jundo]

Let me add this, for a fellow like me who is rather agnostic or unconcerned (and rather skeptical) on extremely literal beliefs in past lives ...

I think there are some things in life we do through our volitional acts that we are largely responsible for. If I smoke for 40 years, and get lung cancer, it is largely my fault (even if social pressure, my body's tendency to addiction and the tobacco companies advertising are major factors too.) I do not know about lives long ago, but I know about the effects the come to fruit in this life.

I think that some things are largely beyond individual responsibility, or are mixed. Many kids in the ghettos of India or Brazil never get a chance, never get an education, and it is not about them. Sure, they could get out of the ghetto with some super-human effort and a good deal of luck, but it is largely beyond most children born there. We need to do something to provide equal opportunity.

I think that, these days, people tend to blame too many of their problems on somebody or something else. Grow up, take responsibility.

I think that even the "successful" people in this world who work hard should realize that they stand on the shoulders of all the people who labor and provide them resources. They do not do anything alone. They are also very lucky. Kliff gets through dental school because of his own diligence and hard work, and because also of every waitress who worked 3 jobs to bring him coffee, every bus driver of the school bus, every blade of grass and tree, and every link in Indra's Net ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14761-BOOK-OF-EQUANIMITY-Case-67

Thich Nhat Hanh provides this lovely description of the interbeing of things, and it is no less for our individual lives and roads ...

If you are a poet, you will see clearly that there is a cloud floating in this sheet of paper. Without a cloud, there will be no rain; without rain, the trees cannot grow: and without trees, we cannot make paper. The cloud is essential for the paper to exist. If the cloud is not here, the sheet of paper cannot be here either. So we can say that the cloud and the paper inter-are.

"Interbeing" is a word that is not in the dictionary yet, but if we combine the prefix "inter" with the verb "to be", we have a new verb, inter-be. Without a cloud, we cannot have paper, so we can say that the cloud and the sheet of paper inter-are.

If we look into this sheet of paper even more deeply, we can see the sunshine in it. If the sunshine is not there, the forest cannot grow. In fact nothing can grow. Even we cannot grow without sunshine. And so, we know that the sunshine is also in this sheet of paper. The paper and the sunshine inter-are. And if we continue to look we can see the logger who cut the tree and brought it to the mill to be transformed into paper. And we see the wheat. We know that the logger cannot exist without his daily bread, and therefore the wheat that became his bread is also in this sheet of paper. And the logger's father and mother are in it too. When we look in this way we see that without all of these things, this sheet of paper cannot exist.

But to say that one person is responsible for everything that happens to them? No. Anyway, the title of the essay by Brad and Brad's rambles ... not so clear what he is on about.

Gassho, J

SatToday

PS - My view on prior lives ....

My attitude, and that of many other Buddhist teachers, is that ...

If there are future lives, heavens and hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

And if there are no future lives, no heavens or hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

Thus I do not much care if, in the next life, that "gentle way, avoiding harm" will buy me a ticket to heaven and keep me out of hell ... but I know for a fact that it will go far to do so in this life, today, where I see people create all manner of "heavens and hells" for themselves and those around them by their harmful words, thoughts and acts in this life.

And if there is a "heaven and hell" in the next life, or other effects of Karma now ... well, my actions now have effects then too, and might be the ticket to heaven or good rebirth.

In other words, whatever the case ... today, now ... live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way) ... seeking to avoid harm now and in the future too.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forum...-BIG-Questions

[Mp]

I think that some things are largely beyond individual responsibility, or are mixed. Many kids in the ghettos of India or Brazil never get a chance, never get an education, and it is not about them. Sure, they could get out of the ghetto with some super-human effort and a good deal of luck, but it is largely beyond most children born there. We need to do something to provide equal opportunity.

I think that, these days, people tend to blame too many of their problems on somebody or something else. Grow up, take responsibility.

I think that even the "successful" people in this world who work hard should realize that they stand on the shoulders of all the people who labor and provide them resources. They do not do anything alone. They are also very lucky. Kliff gets through dental school because of his own diligence and hard work, and because also of every waitress who worked 3 jobs to bring him coffee, every bus driver of the school bus, every blade of grass and tree, and every link in Indra's Net ...

Thank you Jundo ... very important point.

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Geika]

Thank you, Jundo. I completely agree.

Gassho, sat today

[Myosha]

Hello,

Distinction is good fun.

(Note to self)^^


Gassho
Myosha
sat today

[Tanjin]

If I am not an independent self then I could never be said to be responsible for anything. Accepting this, I find that I can surrender with gratitude and appreciation to each moment as it arises only as it can and must in its perfection.

Gassho,
Jimmy
Sattoday

[Jundo]

If I am not an independent self .....

Yes, so long as one also realizes that they are also not just an independent self, but also simultaneously and thoroughly an interdependent self ...

... and also, taking a further step, an interbeingly intimately interflowing self so radically interbeing and free flowing that one is just each and all things persons and events and all and each are just precisely you ...

(see the above rather materialistic description of 'interbeing' by Thich Nhat Hanh, as well as the rather 'not just material things' description of Indra's Net linked to about, in order to get a taste) ...

... so much so that whatever is the universe, the incredible dance of swirling Emptiness, not to mention whatever may be beyond and holding all that is just manifesting as you, and you embody and hold all that (as much as, for example, a single drop of sea water may be said to hold and embody all the sea) ...

(see this description of the dance of emptiness to take this for a spin ... Buddha-Basics (Part XVII) — The Dance of Emptiness ... )

So long as one also realizes (in the bones) and learns to realize (in living and making real in life) all these Truths ...

... then yes, you are an independent self.

Anyway, we need this independent self for practical purposes to live as human beings. The universe can't even make toast without your hands. I mean, try telling the Tax Office that you do not need to file a return this year because there is no independent self to earn income and, anyway, all your revenue is attributable to the whole world!

A Koan (Blue Cliff Record 53) ...

Once Ma-tsu and Pai-chang were walking along and they saw some wild ducks fly by.
“What is that?” the Master asked.
“Wild ducks,” Pai-chang replied.
“Where have they gone?”
“They’ve flown away,” Pai-chang said.
The Master then twisted Pai-chang’s nose, and when Pai-chang cried out in pain, Ma-tsu said, “When have they ever flown away?”

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Tanjin]

Thank you for this teaching Jundo!

Deep bows,
Jimmy
Sattoday