Belt + Zafu = Reduced back pain

[Kaishin]

I stumbled across this tip from Muho at Antaiji in one of his videos. Wish I would have known this years ago! I've been using it for the past few sittings, and have been able to adjust the firmness/height of my zafu in a way that has easily reduced pain/discomfort by 50%

Worth trying! Skip to about 1:40 for the "trick," but the whole video is worth watching:

https://youtu.be/bk7JRHNX19A?t=1m41s

-satToday

[Jundo]

Thanks Kaishin.

The tip regarding the belt is interesting and very practical, although he could also do to better stuff that flabby Zafu.

On the other hand, I sometimes find Muho's recommendations for sitting, and much of the Japanese style, rather rigid. Better is to get to know your own body, and the positions leading to a feeling of balance and comfort in one's own posture (Taigu recommends much the same as well). This posture will also change during sitting as the body settles. One size does not fit all, learn to listen to one's own body.

I also feel that they sit TOO MUCH at Antaiji. Yes, you heard me ... TOO MUCH. It is fine to sit as much as they do sometimes, but their style is to do so day in and day out during Retreat, and for long periods of time each sitting. This is their typical Retreat schedule one week a month ...

4am to 9am Zazen
9am Breakfast
10am to 3pm Zazen
3pm Lunch
4pm to 9pm Zazen
9pm Lights out
The zazen periods are interrupted by 15 minute intervals of kinhin (walking Zen) every full hour.

http://antaiji.org/en/practice/schedule/

Regular days are also quite intense, although the emphasis is as much on work (for their farm) as Zazen.

I believe that is 15 hours of Zazen a day, in 5 hour back-to-back sets of 45 minute individual sittings. There is really no break. Perhaps once in awhile it might be good to sit with such intensity, but it can also be too much of a good thing. (He describes their typical Retreat from the 5:30 mark).

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Makkusu]

I also feel that they sit TOO MUCH at Antaiji. Yes, you heard me ... TOO MUCH. It is fine to sit as much as they do sometimes, but their style is to do so day in and day out during Retreat, and for long periods of time each sitting. This is their typical Retreat schedule one week a month ...

Hello Jundo,

they really sit a lot, that's for sure. Muho mentioned that in one year they reach about 1800 hours of Zazen. But he mentioned in his newer book that he tried to reduce the Zazen time once so they could work more. In the end they didn't gain any more working hours because the Zazen time wasn't lost time he said. I really respect Muho and what he does at Antaiji, but for me and other people it would be too much. There has to be a middle way between both extremes. Would you set an "upper limit" for normal days or do you think there is one?

Gassho, Max
#s@ttoday

[Jundo]

Hi Max,

It sounds strange, but Zazen should be sat BEYOND TIME, and dropping away thoughts of "long" and "short". It is not a matter of quantity, but in fact, is the medicine for the human tendency of counting and reaching. It is fine to sometimes sit for 15 hours in a day (I have sat such Retreats and it is a valuable experience, although it is very unusual to sit so long at most Japanese Retreats. Maybe most Sesshin at monasteries and temples in Japan are about half that. A long retreat is sitting long with the "me myself and i" to realize "nothing to attain". Very valuable.). However, it is also vital to learn how to sit 15 minutes, 15 seconds, 15,000 years and 15 endless Kalpa.

I spoke about this a bit in a talk ...

So many Zen students think that the longer they sit the better. They believe 10 years surpasses 10 months or 10 days, which must be better than 10 hours, which is better than 10 minutes or seconds. They treat Zazen like a taxi meter or points to rack up, the more they sit the closer they are to the goal. They equate more and more sitting with going deeper and deeper, or becoming more and more peaceful, or more and more "Buddha-like", or more and more "enlightened".

However, Zazen only truly hits the mark when all measure of time and score, goals and attainment are dropped away. Only then does a moment of sitting contain all time, only then does one realize the destination ever present. Zazen is thus very unlike many forms of meditation (not to mention very unlike our usual clock watching, tally counting, comparing and measuring, goal oriented attitude toward the rest of our busy lives) in which deeper and deeper attainments, and greater and greater achievements, add up with time.

SIT-A-LONG with Jundo: Why Zen Folks FAIL!! (5) - Watching The Clock Rackin Up Points

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?13634-SIT-A-LONG-with-Jundo-Why-Zen-Folks-FAIL%21%21-%285%29-Watching-The-Clock-Rackin-Up-Points

My recommendation on time for the average person is as follows:

Sit-a-Long with Jundo: Zazen for Beginners (Part XXI)

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9281-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%28Part-XXI%29

... 15 minutes ...

Certainly, sitting is not (when tasted as suchness) a matter limited by time or space, long or short in place or duration. In a moment of True Sitting, time is still ... even as it keeps flowing! ...

So then, why "15 minutes" ... and not "1 minute" or "5 minutes" or "5 hours" or "1 second"?

On a practical level, I think our busy working people can find 15 minutes a day, and such is just sufficient time to settle down the mind, release thoughts and emotions, and taste a period of timelessness. Any shorter is TOO SHORT to taste timelessness because ... like a storm or turbulent water, it takes a few minutes to clear and still a bit. In principle, sitting could be a moment or half a moment. However, a few minutes are usually required to allow for making the mental and physical transition from our busy day to this sacred moment ... in order to settle. After all, it takes a little bit of time to taste Timelessness!

... IF (underline IF) coupled with what we call "Insta-Zazen" out in the world ... (the © marks are just a joke) ...

We do Insta-Zazen © at points in our day when just a bit of “Zen Mind”© will change our perspective on all things, when a touch of balance will bring life into balance…

Just standing in a creeping postal line, in the dentist’s chair, when the car won’t start on a cold morning, when driving and stuck in traffic, when the computer crashes, the baby is teething, waiting for the crossing light to change, the toast to toast, wherever and whenever… just do what you do in Zazen, with the Lotus Position fully optional (It tends to get in the way while driving or having a root canal, although it might work in the postal line if you keep pushing along.).


http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...-%28Part-XX%29

Long sitting sometimes is fine. But too much emphasis on long sitting, without proper emphasis on short and "out in life non-sitting sitting" ... all beyond time ... is maybe leaving out something vital.

One time I made a video of me sitting in a car, pulled over on the side of a busy, noisy highway, sitting Zazen. Muho and I chatted, and he seemed to indicate that he did not think much of such Zazen. I have difficulty to understand that view. I think there is a time to sit for 15 hours in a temple, and a time to sit for 15 minutes next to Highway 15 or whereever.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Makkusu]

Hello Jundo,

I think I'm able to understand your point now. I didn't think that I should forget "long" and "short" in Zazen but I'm very thankful that you reminded me of this. It's still hard not to see Zazen as a taxi meter, I will watch the videos you mentioned. I don't understand either why Muho doesn't think much of Insta-Zazen ©, but I guess he has his reasons. I like this kind of practice, although I try to make my whole life more Zazen. Maybe that's already a mistake, only time will tell.

Gassho, Max
#s@today

[Kyonin]

Hello all,

I had no idea about the belt trick, but seems fine.

What I do is to sit on rolled up blankets because regular Mexican zafus are too small for my height. With my blankets I can adjust the height so my knees are comfortable and not a distraction.

I also have a custom made zafu that a friend gave me. It's like a clown zafu. It's huge! But it's really nice and tall...

Captura.JPG

As you can see, I sit at the very edge of the zafu, which creates a nice angle and the back is comfortable as well.

But like Jundo says, it's better to experiment to know your body.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Jundo]

It's like a clown zafu.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3727[/ATTACH]

Clown Zafu!



Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jyukatsu]

I don't think sitting for 15 hours day after day is healthy at all, our bodies are meant to move !!!
I have sat intensive vipassana retreats and sesshins and these have been very valuable but my body is always very happy to be moving again afterwards
Gassho,
Marina
Sat Today ( a healthy 45 minutes

[Kaishin]

Thanks Kaishin.

The tip regarding the belt is interesting, although he could also do to better stuff that flabby Zafu.

Totally agree! I've extra stuffed my zafu to the max with kapok, but my body just needs to be extra high off the ground, so the belt really helps!

On the other hand, I sometimes find Muho's recommendations for sitting, and much of the Japanese style, rather rigid. Better is to get to know your own body, and the positions leading to a feeling of balance and comfort in one's own posture (Taigu recommends much the same as well). This posture will also change during sitting as the body settles. One size does not fit all, learn to listen to one's own body.

Absolutely agree here too!

I also feel that they sit TOO MUCH at Antaiji. Yes, you heard me ... TOO MUCH. It is fine to sit as much as they do sometimes, but their style is to do so day in and day out during Retreat, and for long periods of time each sitting. This is their typical Retreat schedule one week a month ...

I am always amazed at their schedule. I could never do that, but I do respect their ability to do so and their commitment to the Uchiyama/Sawaki-style sesshins. They are a very small temple, and probably always will be due to the scary hard schedule and back breaking farm work!

P.S. LOL at that zafu, Kyonin! It does look funny, BUT I would love to have one that size!

[Mp]

Hey Kaishin,

I remember sitting with a Tibetan group one time and saw a couple folks using this strap system before to support them. Not my thing, but whatever is supportive to one's practice is/can be a good thing. =)

bbbbbbb.jpg

https://www.google.ca/search?q=tibetan+belt+for+meditation&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiGv7SY76PPAhXD5IMKHfZpDaIQ_AUICCgB&biw=1404&bih=803#imgrc=edYLiRUlgPDmiM%3A

Gassho
Shingen

s@satoday

[Ongen]

Hi all,

The sesshins I sit with Jeff Shore twice a year are that rigid too, about 14 hours of zazen a day for five days.

I feel it certainly has it's value, and is not unhealthy if you listen closely to your body. It allows for a very peaceful mind and really does something special.

But doing that months in a row is something completely different indeed...

Still I agree with Jundo, if you sit and listen to your body constantly, letting go of temporary mind-constructed aches and pains but beware of serious stuff, a decent zafu and careful adjustment of that is enough for hours of happy and healthy sitting. 14 hours is not much in that case.

Gassho
Ongen

Sat today

[Jundo]

Let me clarify two points ...

First, I think that sometimes sitting 15 hours a day ... even longer perhaps ... is sometimes good if you can logistically and physically manage it. And if not that, then a Sesshin for however many days and hours of sitting per day one can manage, at least once a year if not more. If one truly can't they can't, but one should if one can. Why?

Now, someone might ask too, "if each moment is all time and space, what is the purpose of an intensive Sesshin?" Well, I often say that, sometimes, we need to practice a bit long and hard, morning to night ... sitting and wrestling with 'me, my self and I' ... all to achieve nothing to attain! Going to Retreats, Sesshin and such is a powerful facet of this Practice and not to be missed.

So, saying that "I'm too busy and cannot find the time or money" is one thing ... if it is truly true. If truly true, then sit with that to the depthless depths. But if it is only a matter that "I am saving my money for a new ipod and prefer a vacation at the beachfront hotel" ... or is just plain lazy or intimidated ... get thy butt to Sesshin!

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post171813

Next, someone wrote to ask if I recommended that they shorten their once or twice a day 30 minute sitting to less. The answer is no, it is up to them. 15 minutes one a day (with many "insta-Zazens"!) is good, twice a day or 30 minutes is good (with many "insta-Zazens"!): It is up to you. If someone can sit twice a day for more than 15 minutes, and it feels right and balanced for them, please do so! 15 minutes or 30 or 45 all good, if all "beyond time" sitting.

But in any case, do not forget the many "insta-Zazens" through the day, as one gets off the Zafu and gets on where the rubber meets the road of life.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7686-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%28Part-XX%29

I hope that is clear.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jakuden]

Hi Max,

It sounds strange, but Zazen should be sat BEYOND TIME, and dropping away thoughts of "long" and "short". It is not a matter of quantity, but in fact, is the medicine for the human tendency of counting and reaching. It is fine to sometimes sit for 15 hours in a day (I have sat such Retreats and it is a valuable experience, although it is very unusual to sit so long at most Japanese Retreats. Maybe most Sesshin at monasteries and temples in Japan are about half that. A long retreat is sitting long with the "me myself and i" to realize "nothing to attain". Very valuable.). However, it is also vital to learn how to sit 15 minutes, 15 seconds, 15,000 years and 15 endless Kalpa.

I spoke about this a bit in a talk ...



SIT-A-LONG with Jundo: Why Zen Folks FAIL!! (5) - Watching The Clock Rackin Up Points

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?13634-SIT-A-LONG-with-Jundo-Why-Zen-Folks-FAIL%21%21-%285%29-Watching-The-Clock-Rackin-Up-Points

My recommendation on time for the average person is as follows:

Sit-a-Long with Jundo: Zazen for Beginners (Part XXI)

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9281-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%28Part-XXI%29

... 15 minutes ...



... IF (underline IF) coupled with what we call "Insta-Zazen" out in the world ... (the [emoji767] marks are just a joke) ...



Long sitting sometimes is fine. But too much emphasis on long sitting, without proper emphasis on short and "out in life non-sitting sitting" ... all beyond time ... is maybe leaving out something vital.

One time I made a video of me sitting in a car, pulled over on the side of a busy, noisy highway, sitting Zazen. Muho and I chatted, and he seemed to indicate that he did not think much of such Zazen. I have difficulty to understand that view. I think there is a time to sit for 15 hours in a temple, and a time to sit for 15 minutes next to Highway 15 or whereever.

Gassho, J

SatToday

That was an invaluable teaching for me. Looking back over the time since joining Treeleaf--it seems that no-self would have taken so much longer to be realized without the practice of sitting in different kinds of circumstances. No-self when in the sesshin, but also no-self when traveling, sick, anxious, disturbed by noise, whatever the 10,000 things are up to in any given moment.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

No-self when in the sesshin, but also no-self when traveling, sick, anxious, disturbed by noise, whatever the 10,000 things are up to in any given moment.

We'd make that our slogan here if it would fit on a banner!

Gassho, J

SatToday (for however long)

[Kyosei]

Just want to thank Kaishin for bringing this tip. I sat right after reading this topic (and watching the video); Just to put an ol' belt on my Zafu and adjust its height brought me some relief.

I think it is useful when you don't have the possibility to stuff something more in the Zafu, and maybe its a very practical thing to have at a Zendo... maybe better than sit on two or more Zafus as they could slip.

Thank you ver much.

Gassho.

#SatToday.