SPLIT THREAD: Suttas and Sutras

[Zenmei]

So bleeding during childbirth and doing laundry will get you sent to Blood Pool Hell. And I thought the Old Testament was crazy.

Thank you Jundo, for the reminder that all people are completely insane, even Buddhists.

Gassho, Dudley

[Jundo]

Bro. Brad Warner posted this today (Warning: Adult Content) that is so completely insanely anger-filled and discriminatory that it is just hate speech. It is so STRANGE and twisted! Aspestos diapers?

At first Brad asked if it was a farce, but no ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWXPxn_Mkns&feature=youtu.be

James David Manning (born February 20, 1947) is chief pastor at the ATLAH World Missionary Church on 123rd Street in New York City. Manning grew up in Red Springs, North Carolina, born to an African American family, and has been at ATLAH since 1981. ATLAH stands for All The Land Anointed Holy, which is Manning's name for Harlem.

Through the ATLAH church, Manning hosts an online series called The Manning Report, which features criticism on such topics as the negative influence of black celebrities, homosexuality, and the alleged criminal acts of current U.S. President Barack Obama. Manning's allegations have made him highly controversial.

And again, before someone says that Buddhism is totally free of such things ... no. We have our examples too, although maybe without quite the fire and brimstone ... For example, the modern Chinese Chan Master Huan Hua ...

"Homosexual behavior, especially, is behavior that will put an end to nations and humanity. What does it mean by putting an end to nations? Someone who practices homosexuality will not care about their country, so that country will disintegrate. Homosexuals do not procreate, so the human race will vanish! This kind of behavior is forbidden by national law, universal law, and natural law. Those who do will fall into the hells no matter who they are. Every one of us must know this.

People cannot be oblivious to the basic responsibilities of human beings, otherwise we cannot even compare to animals. Notice how animals do not engage in homosexual behavior. Some may argue that same-sex lab rats practice homosexuality, but that is because you force these rats. Has anyone confined you so that you are only with those of your sex and make you practice homosexuality? This kind of behavior defies creation; it is wrong. Cultivators must be normal and not psychologically deranged."

...

If homosexuality becomes legal, then the human race will vanish. Why will it vanish? Heaven will punish us. Homosexuals exist due in part to the influence of a certain religion. This religion used to be underground and did not dare to promote homosexuality openly, but now that we're in an age where Dharma is on the decline, all kinds of strange phenomenon are happening. Consequently, these people protest, join parades, and lobby for legalizing homosexuality. This is essentially an omen for doomsday. We should know this because if everyone recognizes this as a fault, people may live a little longer. Otherwise, everyone will face cataclysm, a catastrophe of inordinate proportion that brings death to all. Since all the perversities and wickedness in our world now are too awful for words, people who still feel that this time and age is not bad might be crazy people, more or less.

http://www.gbm-online.com/online/dharma/avoid.html

May all of us sit together, live together, love together in our own ways ... without flames coming from anywhere.

Gassho, J

SatToday

PS - I do not take any of that, by the way, as representative of either all Christianity or Buddhism. Many many flavors of each, fortunately.

[MacK]

Oh my gosh. That video is horrible. I could only bring myself to watch the first minute. It makes me so sad that people can be so full of hatred for no good reason.

I guess he is also implying that anyone who has colorectal cancer is a sodomite.

That has really upset me - am not going to watch the rest of the clip.

Gassho
Karen
Sat today

[Tai Shi]

I am so ashamed of this mam who defames his body and all bodies, and demands defaming himself in the destroying others threats and flames, his magical demands, and defames sacred body parts meant for union of others, and preachers, and all his terrible terrible parts, and even insects, and his own lifting up of himself. and as a child I was exposed to such defaming--his own self aggrandizement and threats from his own mouth an we are a peaceful people. So as a child I feared all my own body, and the natural and caring union of others with selves was so very fearful, and much I did mot understand until age 59, when I began to fully understand--how could one be so very cruel--Thinking of Unfolding the Hand of Thought where the literal new beginning in a New Testament, the words of Paul and even The Lord's Prayer-Uchichyama unfolds a different reality of all of us, in speaking Bodidharma, that state of Shikantaza and posture and breath which becomes the silence of no understanding and fomlessness through form. Thus I come to begin to understand a different way of being.

Tai Shi
Calm Poetry
std
Gassho

[Byrne]

He says "butt hole" more than he probably should. He says a lot of things more than he probably should, but after watching that the only part I remember is "butt hole"

Gassho

Sat Today

[RichardH]

He says "butt hole" more than he probably should. He says a lot of things more than he probably should, but after watching that the only part I remember is "butt hole"

Gassho

Sat Today

He does seem to think about "butt holes" an awful lot.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Gassho
Daizan


sat today

[Byrne]

He sure does and now he has all of us too. To summon a demon just speak its name.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Kaishin]

Paul,

Go listen to Taigen Dan Leighton (an important teacher and scholar in our lineage) give three talks on Dogen and the Lotus Sutra. He does a fantastic job of helping listeners understand the "psychedelic" writing and Dogen's riffing on them.

Start at episode 456 -- it's a three-part series

http://www.ancientdragon.org/dharma/dharma_talks_audio

I can sympathize with your discomfort towards the flowery aspects of the Mahayana. This discomfort will probably lessen over time, as you learn to start to let go of the need for everything to be linear and concrete and conform to the logical mind. At least that has been my experience over the years. Emotive text has its place, just as does descriptive.

[Jakuden]

Thanks for the link Kaishin!
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Mitty-san]

Wow, so much happened on this thread since last time I was here. Byrne, thanks for the detailed response. Jundo, thanks for the additional info. Kaishin, thanks for the link to the podcasts. I'll check those out. Thanks to the rest of you for your contributions too. I'm glad we can share and discuss these issues with each other respectfully.

...after watching that the only part I remember is "butt hole"

Yes. It's stuck in my head now.

I've noticed people project onto the suttas/sutras/other religious texts, often without even realizing it. If different people read the same sutra/sutta, they'll take away different things from it without doing it at all intentionally based on their own experiences/personality/biases/etc. Different people will emphasize or downplay certain parts, without consciously doing it.

I do agree emotive and descriptive both have their place, but they're often mixed together, which can create confusion. The Lotus Sutra itself even says that anyone who slanders it will go to a literal hell for a very long time. Depending on how exactly slander was meant, I might be in hell for a very long time after death. From what I've seen/read, even some people today take this literally. From what I've read on Buddhist history (I'm not an expert of course), the literal or at least partially literal interpretation of the Mahayana sutras was more common. Monks often charged or accepted large sums of money or goods to helped the karma/rebirth of deceased relatives. Jodo Shu, Jodo Shinshu, and Nichirin seems to be fairly toward the literal end. Some sects Zen less so but still saw at least some of it as literal.

I agree the Pali Canon has issues with it too. No doubt even many "non-fiction" biographies and history books have exaggerated or embellished elements.

In any case, to each his/her own.



Sat today

[Jundo]

Hi Paul,

The Lotus Sutra itself even says that anyone who slanders it will go to a literal hell for a very long time.

Well, the Sanskrit literally says "fire will come out your butthole."

From what I've seen/read, even some people today take this literally. From what I've read on Buddhist history (I'm not an expert of course), the literal or at least partially literal interpretation of the Mahayana sutras was more common. Monks often charged or accepted large sums of money or goods to helped the karma/rebirth of deceased relatives.

Well, yes and no ... (and what's right thru "yes vs. no" too). Also Yo and Nes! Seriously, let me explain ...

Chinese folks of old did not quite look at "fact" and "fiction" the same as we do today (although, honestly, can anybody going through this U.S. election cycle separate "fact" from "fiction" ).

In the old days, the ordinary folks may have believed one thing about these Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and the ceremonies they requested to bring them blessings, but the priests (at least, the more educated ones) knew another thing.

The Lotus Sutra speaks of "expedient means" ... that all these stories, even the "Lotus Sutra" itself, are "Holy Lies" to get the point across ...

Mahayana Buddhists often use the word upaya, which is translated "skillful means" or "expedient means." Very simply, upaya is any activity that helps others realize enlightenment. Sometimes upaya is spelled upaya-kausalya, which is "skill in means."
...

Skillful means is one of the major themes of the Lotus Sutra. In the second chapter the Buddha explains the importance of upaya, and he illustrates this in the third chapter with the parable of the burning house. In this parable a man comes home to find his house in flames while his children play happily inside. The father tells the children to leave the house, but they refuse, because they are having too much fun with their toys.

The father finally promises them something even better waiting outside. I have brought you pretty carts drawn by deer, goats and bullocks he said. Just come outside, and I will give you what you want. The children run out of the house, just in time. The father, delighted, does make good on his promise and aquires the most beautiful carriages he can find for his children.

Then the Buddha asked the disciple Sariputra if the father was guilty of lying, because there were no carts or carriages outside when he told his children there were. Sariputra said no, because he was using an expedient means to save his children. The Buddha concluded that even if the father had given his children nothing, he was still blameless, because he did what he had to do to save his children.
http://buddhism.about.com/od/mahayan...m/fl/Upaya.htm

Okay, so the Mahayana Priests who studied these matters (including Dogen and the other Zen folks) knew that the Lotus Sutra and all these characters appearing in it are "Upaya" expedient means, symbols, Empty, mirages ...

On the other hand ...

In the old days, folks believed that if you dreamed something, or someone appeared to you in a vision or during meditation ... well, does that not say something, hold a certain reality, make it real? I mean, are not "Charlie Brown" and "R2D2" and "Santa Claus" real in our hearts. holding real power over our feelings and able to say something true to us?

We "make them real"and literally "bring them to life" in the vision and the dream, which has real meaning. For god sakes, who would you rather have as president: Donald Trump or imaginary Abraham Lincoln or "I cannot tell a lie" Washington? (That is as much as a comment by me as you will get on this election ... but enough said ). Heck, give me CHARLIE BROWN!



In all seriousness, are not our dreams and visions real? Do they not have power? I am reading a book now by the great Buddhist historian Robert Sharf on an 8th Century early proto-Chan/Zen work called the Treasure Store Treatise ... Here he discusses practices meant to summon visions of Buddhas in meditation ...

More striking is the pointed critique of “buddha contemplation” practices
(nien-fo ), found in both the Treasure Store Treatise and the
Chüeh-kuan lun. The issue was clearly of some significance to the
author of the Treasure Store Treatise, as seen in an extended passage
castigating misguided and superficial interpretations of nien-fo:

Let us suppose a person contemplates the Buddha and the Buddha
appears, or contemplates the samgha and the samgha appears. It is actually
neither Buddha nor is it not Buddha, and yet it appears as Buddha.
Likewise it is neither the samgha nor is it not the samgha, and yet it
appears as the samgha. Why so? It appears because of that person’s
desire [for such a vision] while contemplating. Such people are unaware
that the visions are products of their own minds. (149a21–24)

The Treasure Store Treatise insists that, while some practitioners may
indeed attain a vision of the Buddha, these visions are mere projections.
The true body of the Buddha is the dharma-body, which is empty and
nondual, and thus cannot be construed as separate from the one who
is construing. The real buddha-body is neither existent nor nonexistent;
it is not something that can be seen, much less described ...

...

and yet ...

Elsewhere the sutra reaffirms that the vision of a buddha is not achieved
through the divine eye, through transporting oneself to another realm,
or by virtue of any other magical power. ... In other words, the world of the buddhas is none other than this
world—a world constructed through the activity of mind:

[The practitioner] contemplates as follows: “From where did these
Buddhas come just now? And this body of mine, from where did it
appear?” Discerning that those Tathagatas ultimately did not come from
anywhere or go anywhere, one understands one’s own body in the
same manner. Originally there is no realm from which to come, so
how could there be any turning [through the wheel of samsara]?
Moreover, [the practitioner] must perform the following contemplation:
“This triple world exists merely as mind. Why so? In accord
with my thoughts, so things appear. § Now it is with my mind that I
perceive the Buddha; my mind produces the Buddha. My mind is the
Buddha. My mind is the Tathagata. My mind is my body. My mind sees
the Buddha. [Yet] mind does not itself know mind; mind does not
itself see mind. When the mind produces thought, there is samsara.
Nirvana is precisely the mind devoid of thought. All dharmas are unreal
but arise dependent on thought.


The buddhas and their buddha-lands have no independent ontological
status; they exist nowhere other than in the mind of the
practitioner. But this does not impinge upon the buddhas’ power or
“grace.”

http://www.uhpress.hawaii.edu/p-2322-9780824830281.aspx

So, as I said, be cautious about drawing too firm a line between the "truth" of the world and the "falsity" of fable, vision and dreams.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Mitty-san]

Thanks, Jundo for more detailed clarification and the book recommendation.

I took some time to listen to the podcasts Kaishin linked to and consider everything.

Taigen emphasizes reading creatively for inspiration rather than as a rulebook or similar. I suppose I can relate to that, although perhaps I don’t like the flowery language because I’ve never really been a big fan of poetry, personally. I suppose it’s some consolation that even Taigen says he is put off by certain parts of the Lotus Sutra for various reasons.

If I’m understanding you and the podcasts correctly, perhaps we could say the Mahayana sutras emphasize skillful means, where different teachings and perhaps “holy lies” are to meant to bring sentient beings closer to enlightenment. Dreams can be true in the sense that can have a powerful psychological effects on people, although it can be a problem if people start believing their dreams can predict next year's harvest or anything like that. Then there are the “holy lies”, which could be true in the sense again of having certain psychological affects on people. Of course, again it can also be a problem if they actually start to believe flames will shoot out someone’s butthole.

From reading about Buddhist history as it was practiced, I still have some concerns that the holy lies quite often became too materialistic or abused in other ways instead of being more practical and practiced-oriented. Even with today’s more traditional Buddhist organizations, I still have difficulty with how much they emphasize merit-making activities that don’t really seem to do much of value, such as spending a bunch of money making excessive numbers of expensive gold/diamond. covered holy objects or writing out sutras in pure gold. Perhaps how both the sutras and suttas were written played a role in that. I know Confucians in China criticized this too. This criticism applies less to Soto Zen though.

Perhaps it’s time to do more sitting and reading.



Sat today with the recorded Zazenkai.

[Byrne]

In the sutras the holy lies aren't coming from just anyone. They are coming from the Buddha (the awakened one) as an expression of compassion. In the parable of the burning house the father has one goal and one goal only, to guide his children to safety. If people are being exploited or abused that wouldn't exactly fall under the definition of holy lies as expressed in the Lotus Sutra.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Jundo]

In the sutras the holy lies aren't coming from just anyone. They are coming from the Buddha (the awakened one) as an expression of compassion. In the parable of the burning house the father has one goal and one goal only, to guide his children to safety. If people are being exploited or abused that wouldn't exactly fall under the definition of holy lies as expressed in the Lotus Sutra.

Gassho

Sat Today

Nicely put.

It the stories express a Timeless Truth, then they are Truth.

Gassho, J

SatToday