Originally posted by Jundo
Gassho, Dudley
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Sorry to hijack the thread, but are there any writings or other teachings on these differences you'd recommend? If not, could you say a little more? I would love to read the Pali canon and the Chinese canon and compare the two, but I only have so many lifetimes left.
Gassho, Dudley
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Hi Dudley,
Well, that is really asking about the whole history of Buddhism, how it has evolved over the millennia, and the different (often conflicting) teachings that are offered in the hundreds and hundreds of Suttas and Sutras (only a fraction ever translated, by the way) ... not to mention that a single Sutta and Sutra may have had multiple authors presenting seemingly contradictory Teachings within a single work, and that commentators over the centuries can see a single Sutra in very different ways according to their own interpretation.
That being said ...
For someone looking for some history with some weight, Paul Williams has two histories that are extremely detailed (rather college level textbooks for perhaps an Introduction to Buddhism course. Serious books, very readable but not light) ...
• Mahayana Buddhism, The Doctrinal Foundations, by Paul Williams
... and on the earlier tradition ...
• Buddhist Thought, A Complete Introduction to the Indian Tradition, Paul Williams and Anthony Tribe.
By the way, much of what is currently presented as "Theravada" or Insight/Vipassana Buddhism, and their interpretations of the old Suttas, is a rather recent development ...
For beginners (although we are all beginners), I better recommend the following less dense introductions to Buddhism and Zen history ...
• Buddhism For Dummies by Jonathan Landaw & Stephan Bodian (Jundo: I have been looking for a very long time for a book for people very new to Buddhism who want to know basic information and all the many flavors of Buddhist schools, their beliefs and practices. Despite the silly title, this is a very smart, well written, comprehensive and detailed yet easy ... )
• Simple Guide to Zen Buddhism by Diana St. Ruth
Those are all on our Treeleaf Suggested Book List ...
We had a thread awhile back on which Sutras are most commonly cherished in the Zen Traditions (yes, our "Way Beyond Words and Letters" cherishes Sutras so long as one is not a prisoner of their words! Even the most radical Zen folks usually had read the Sutras and Commentaries before burning them) ...
Finally, it is important to recall that even the oldest of the South Asian Suttas were maintained orally, and were not written down for centuries after the death of the historical Buddha (and even then, the copies we have for most of them are often even younger than Mahayana Sutras). The Mahayana Sutras were, each and all, written by religiously inspired human authors long after the time of the Buddha. Nobody may ever truly know just "what the Buddha originally taught", although that does not matter so ... for Buddhism is a growing, changing, developing way, with many methods and paths suited to different walkers. I often say that, as with many things, later developments are often good developments ... The Mahayana authors all believed that they were "channeling" Buddha by being in touch and expressing the Wisdom and Compassion that is Buddha.there is also the Lankavatara Sutra, the Lotus Sutra (so vital to Dogen's writings and world view), the Mahaparinirvana Sutra (also called the Nirvana Sutra, not to be confused with the Nirvana Sutta), the Vimalakirti Sutra (about the Lay person who teaches a thing or two to the Buddha's best monks), the Heart Sutra and other Perfection of Wisdom literature such as the Diamond Sutra, and perhaps the Flower Garland (Hua-yen) Sutra.
More discussion here:
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...ll=1#post57792
However, the simple fact that something is a later development does not necessarily mean it is lesser (or "greater") by that alone. Some later developments may be seen as loss, some as improvements! (We honor the Wright Brothers as founders, but fly a 777). Many of the changes as Buddhism comes West and into modern times may simply be seen as adjustments to fit different cultures and times, some are truly revolutionary, while others may not prove to have been good. Only time will tell. I came across this paragraph yesterday which summarizes some of the changes in modern Buddhism. The author argues that Buddhist historians should not take modern Buddhism as "less authentic" than older Buddhism, just a new expression.
I believe that most of those changes are positive developments.Buddhist modernists are described in the Buddhist Studies literature as possessing an orientation that encompasses a number of often interrelated features said to derive from the influence of the West. These include:
the extolling of reason and rationality; a rejection of ritual, “superstition,” and cosmology; an understanding of doctrine and text as more authentically Buddhist than practices such as relic veneration or
Buddha-name recitation; laicization and democratization; a valorization of meditation and an optimistic view of nirvana, culminating in the hitherto unprecedented widespread practice of meditation among the laity; an ecumenical attitude toward other Buddhist sects; increased status of women; interest in social engagement; the tendency to define Buddhism as a philosophy rather than a religion ...
Anyway, pardon the long answer on this "Way Beyond Words".
Gassho, J
SatTodayLast edited by Jundo; 08-26-2016, 01:15 PM.ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE -
Is it okay for me to link to South Asian suttas here sometimes if it's relevant to the discussion, perhaps with some disclaimer if appropriate? I know we're focusing on Soto Zen.Originally posted by Jundo
Paul
Sat today._/\_
PaulComment
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By the way, the Mahayana Sutras have everything to do with the "common person", who is not two with the sage, as the sacred and ordinary are one.Originally posted by Mitty-san
Don't get misled by the symbolism and fantastic settings, just Special FX like the Star Wars of its day. The magic and wonder being conveyed is right here in our regular day to day world. The purpose is merely to show something wonderful and often hidden to the eye which ignorantly sees the mundane as just mundane.
Gassho, J
SatTodayALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Thanks, Jundo.
I'm curious if you can explain more but don't want to take up too much of your time with all my wondering. I've been thinking/sitting/reading about this the last two days but still don't quite see how. Maybe in a doctrinal sense I can see it, but actually trying to read some of the Mahayana sutras such as the Vimalakirti Sutra there's so much "special effects" to filter through it distracts from the core message, at least for me.
That being said, the Mahayana sutras seemed to have provided a good doctrinal basis on which the various Kamakura schools (Soto Zen, Rinzai Zen, Nichiren, Jodo Shu, and Jodo Shinshu) were able to form. In that sense I suppose they can be helpful for lay people. Especially Jodo Shu, Jodo Shinshu, and Nichiren seemed to have provide practices easy for busy lay people to do during that time period. I'm not an expert though.
I've read most of the letters of Shinran. They're much easier reading. I don't agree with everything he says but the humanity of him and his followers shines through. Even though it was when one of the important schools of Japanese Buddhism was being founded, the everyday problems were still there. They were ordinary moments, but they greatly impacted a lot of lives and had long-reaching effects. In that sense they were also extraordinary.
Maybe It's because I sometimes struggle with perfectionism, but seeing the problems these people have helps me feel better about my own problems. Everyone has their problems, no matter who, when, or where.
Sat today._/\_
PaulComment
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Hi Paul,
Here is a fun little zen story:
Word came to the scholar Tokuzan that in the south of China an Enlightened Buddhist teacher had realized a new truth about the Diamond Sutra. True scholar that Tokuzan was, he packed up all his books and commentaries on the Diamond Sutra (over 300 pounds of them) and left immediately to take the long journey to hear first-hand this new teaching. On the way he paused at a wayside rest stop and fell into a conversation with an independent businesswoman selling rice cakes.
He asked her, "What is your business?"
"I sell rice cakes," she replied.
"Will you sell me a rice cake?"
"What do you want to buy a rice cake for?" [She was an independent businesswoman.]
"To refresh my mind," said Tokuzan.
The old woman took a look at Tokuzan's 300-pound load of books. "What is all that you are carrying?"
"Haven't you heard? I am the King of the Diamond Sutra. I have mastered the Diamond Sutra. There is no part of it that I do not understand. This load I am carrying is commentaries on the Diamond Sutra."
"Could I ask you a question?"
"Of course."
"I have heard it said in the Diamond Sutra that past mind cannot be grasped, present mind cannot be grasped, and future mind cannot be grasped. Which mind do you now intend to refresh with my rice cakes? If you can tell me, I will sell you a rice cake. If not, I will not sell you my rice cakes."
Tokuzan was dumbfounded and could not find an appropriate response.
Stories like these illustrate what I like about zen.
Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_Comment
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Hi Jishin,
Lovely. I believe the story continues with Tokuzan burning all his commentaries.
Dogen and most of the other old Zen dudes (as we encounter in so many of the Koans we are dancing from the Book of Serenity) would riff off of the Sutras like the Diamond, Lankavatara and Lotus ...
... It is just that they went for the heart of the Teaching without being caught in the words and intellectualizing.
Hi Paul,
Even the South Asian Suttas dip the descriptions of the Buddha and his disciples in such an idealized image of worship, fantastic powers and perfection, and a lifestyle far removed from the common day to day, that it is hard to see the connection to the workaday nitty gritty. (Stephen Batchelor has recently been trying to clear much of that out of the old Suttas, keeping the parables and imaginative images he likes and discarding the rest, and he really has to go after them with a hatchet to do so while creating his own new fiction LINK). One must take all Suttas/Sutras as stories, parables, novels and works of art which convey central messages which can be applied to our situation. Few if any of the Suttas or Sutras are works of bare history, and all are religious and philosophical artistic expressions.
I used to be one who saw truth only in the "non-fiction" section of the library, but I now realize that in the Mahayana and Zen Teachings ... so many of which are meant to demonstrate that our "common sense" way of seeing this world is often deluded, that our view of reality is often upside-down, and that there is more to the so-called "ordinary" than meets the eye ... more truth frequently can be conveyed in parable and poetry than the newspaper, so-called "straight talk" often needs to be bent to be truly "straight", and truth is stranger than fiction.
Gassho, J
SatTodayLast edited by Jundo; 08-28-2016, 03:29 PM.ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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I love the fantastical nature of the sutras, especially the Lotus Sutra. I don't feel the need to verify the sutras to fit my wants and needs. Thinking about them in those terms is too much of an obstacle for genuine appreciation. I've spent a lot of time running from the very literal Judeo-Christian rhetoric so prominent in our culture. Too often, I fell, we hold that standard over our heads to judge all spiritual traditions. I feel that attitude is best left discarded. It reminds me of something a great piano player said to me, "Music critics only ever talk about what music isn't, not what it is." I feel this applies to Buddhism as well. The Buddha gave us good directions for investigation and circumstance has given us wonderful resources such as this Sangha.
Gassho
Sat TodayComment
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Well said, Byrne.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkComment
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Our Koan of the book of Serenity for this week's 'non-reflection' (because what 'two' to reflect?
) has a bit to say about all the many flavors of Sutta and Sutra and how to reflect non-flect them too.
The Koan verses emphasis such images as a single tree or garden of many blossoms, many roads that are a single destination ...
Here is one version ...
Staying away from thoughts, see Buddha, rending the dust, bring forth the Sutras.
Gassho, J
SatTodayALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Hi Dudley,
If you are after a summary 'Pali Canon 101', I can't go past Andrew Olendski's 'Integrated Dharma Program' (see: http://www.integrateddharmainstitute...harma-program/). This resource not only delivers some of the 'meat' of the early teachings, it has some 'gravy' as well in its methodology (not only Pali/English translation, but very helpful commentary and a 'Practice' section, where one can apply the teachings to one's practice and everyday life...). It saves you taking up one of your lifetimes to get a little grasp of what is otherwise a very daunting task - it is hard to know even where to begin with the Pali Canon... And "at the beginning" is not necessarily the right answer...!
Best of luck, and gassho
Anshu
PS, with Jondo's caveat, of course, that "Mahayana and South Asian interpretations of teachings on Dukkha, Emptiness and the like can have subtle differences..."!
-st-Last edited by Anshu Bryson; 08-31-2016, 08:28 AM.Comment
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Thanks Jundo for the links and comments and thanks to the rest of you too.
I've been thinking/sitting about this but can't say I see the value of such fantastical writing, even after reading those articles Jundo linked to. It seems more complicated than it needs to be to me. However, maybe things will change over time. I know there are always going to be people who take sutras or other religious writings in a literal or less literal way and there are advantages and disadvantages or doing both. I'll keep it all in mind to see what comes up.
Just speaking about my experience/biases, I like a good fiction movie or book on occasion, but can't say I've learned much from them. More they just temporarily change my state of mind. Sometimes scifi gives me ideas on what the future could be like though. One non-fiction trilogy I learned a lot about Zen from was "The Practice of Chinese Buddhism: 1900 - 1950", "The Buddhist Revival in China", and "Buddhism Under Mao" by Holmes Welch. They describe in great detail what Chinese Buddhism was like from 1900 to 1970 or so. It showed the ways people interpreted and put the Lotus Sutra and other sutras into practice in the real world, based on the wide variety of factors influencing human behavior and all the turmoil going on in China during those years, for better and worse.
Sat today.
Paul_/\_
PaulComment
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Hi Paul,
I used to listen to a podcast called The Thomas Jefferson Hour. The first half of the show is an scholar/actor doing an interview as Thomas Jefferson. The second half is the scholar/actor interviewing as himself clarifying his answers as Thomas Jefferson. On virtually every single episode he points out (sometimes multiple times) that we live in a post-Freud world. Mr Jefferson lived in a pre-Freud world. At his core (as well as everyone else on Earth living during his time) he had a fundamentally different sense of self than we do now. This different sense of self was further developed under living conditions and circumstance completely unlike what we take for granted and consider normal. Life was experienced and understood differently. When we understand this the literal words of long gone people can take on very different meanings.
The sutras present an even more perplexing problem than a well documented historical figure like Thomas Jefferson. Some Buddhists are very vocal about their skepticism towards the Mahayana Sutras' origins and completely discard them in favor of the Pali cannon. They don't consider them real enough. Jundo frequently points out that all the ancient Buddhist texts Pali/Sanskrit/Chinese/whatever have these sorts of issues and ultimately it is a matter of the individual and only the individual whether or not we find merit within them.
We can never know exactly who wrote these sutras or under what conditions they came to be. That is impossible. Nothing, not Buddhism, not Christianity, not science can ever get around that one. We can never know exactly what it is like to be the specific target demographic the sutras were written for in their specific times. It's too far from the scope of where we are. We can however, know that we have many hard limits on our abilities to comprehend such things and could use a little help understanding them better.
If the uncertainty surrounding the mythological language of the sutras is too much of a problem for you, then it's probably best to focus your attention on what genuinely resonates with you. When you say you don't understand why they have to be fantastical you're really saying you don't understand why they have to be fantastical for you in your own time specifically. That's okay. We all have our own baggage and our own circumstances. What works for me may not work for you. No problem whatsoever. Doesn't mean we can't be friends. Definitely doesn't mean we can't both be serious Buddhists. And most importantly, it doesn't mean that we both can't learn from each other or that one is objectively right or wrong.
The fundamentalist Christian perspective of literal eternal damnation that has straight up traumatized western spiritual culture doesn't carry any weight within the view of the Buddha's teachings. Some atheists get just as spooked by the thought of accidentally believing something superstitious as some Christians do by the thought of their own potential damnation. I've come to see Buddhism as a living religion not a book religion. Which is kind of ironic given the massive amount of Buddhist literature circulating over the past two and a half millennium. Times change. People change. Culture changes. Language changes. Values change. Rising and falling. Different times and different people call for different approaches. No judgements to be made about the nature of our individual circumstances and perspectives.
I believe that everything we need to really dig into Buddhism is contained with the three treasures. By taking refuge in the Buddha we take refuge in the awakening to ultimate truth through teachers starting with Shakyamuni Buddha. By taking refuge in the Dharma we take refuge in the ultimate reality beyond our deluded comprehension which we seek to be taught. By taking refuge in the Sangha we give ourselves a space to learn through others. This is the most important for us because it gives us the opportunity to uncover and release our self centeredness and arrogant misunderstandings that we can test out for ourselves with helpful guidance from others in similar situations under the moderation of a trusted teacher(s).
We don't take refuge in the sutras. There are lots of them and they are hardly consistent. Some are straightforward and practical. Some are loaded with mythological and esoteric language. Some are really good reads loaded with profound wisdom and some are maybe worth ignoring entirely. Without a Sangha to provide a living guide for the essence from which we can understand the Dharma they are pretty useless other than a curiosity. With the guidance of the Sangha they are voices of the Sangha reaching back through time, place, and culture. If nothing else, I think we should honor them in that way whether we choose to read them or not.
All in all you seem to have a really healthy attitude and I'm sure you'll find what you need.
Gassho
Sat TodayComment
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Nice wise post, Byrne.
Maybe takes a musician like yourself to know we don't all walk to the same drummer.
Gassho, J
SatToday
PS - One point I might disagree, we have our "my way or the hellway" Buddhists too, and have throughout our history as well. Not so many perhaps and, generally, Buddhists are pretty tolerant folks though.
A few hundred years ago (not today, as far as I am aware ... but who knows), some Zen priests made quite a business threatening poor women with this ...
Last edited by Jundo; 09-05-2016, 11:40 PM.ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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