Why do repentance for thoughts?

[Kyosei]

Hi friends,

There is the well-known "verse of attonement":

"All evil karma ever committed by me since of old,
On account of my beginningless greed, anger and ignorance,
Born of my body, speech, and thought,
Now I atone for it all."

I understand that actions and even our omissions can affect our "inner world" and the "world outside" (just an image for me to explain the question).

But it is difficult for me to imagine how can a thought - "per se" - create "evil karma", if it doesn't turn into an action or omission. If I don't "feed" this thought, it should never turn to be.

I mean, who didn't ever thought on doing something "wrong", maybe at a certain moment, because of something, but never did?!

I guess sometimes we just can't control our thoughts, and so... how can it be "volitional"?

If it never turned into action ("Karma" - as I understand) - so, why do we do repentance of it?

[Taiyo]

Hi Marcos,

It helps me if I think of it as a 'process'. We're less likely to commit harmful acts (or say harmful words) if we don't have harmful thoughts first. Plus, having harmful thoughts hurts yourself even if you don't do anything about them.

The same way, I try not to feed the fire when I find myself having harmful thoughts. If the fire somehow keeps growing, I try at least not to verbalize it and, finally not to act on it even if I said something wrong. Something like two chances to stop the damage on early stages (two chances that come in hardly so many times ).

Of course, I might be completely wrong!

Gassho,
Andoitz

SatToday

[Jundo]

Feeling and thinking anger, jealousy, greed and the like pollute our inner world, which colors how we encounter the outer world even if we never act upon those thoughts. Thus. the thoughts will harm you by poisoning your life, even if never act upon them ... and you are one of the sentient beings we vow to rescue too! Furthermore, wishing ill toward someone is a volitional act, and laughing or celebrating their harm is participating in the harm even if only from the cheering section. Our thoughts are the first step to making this world ugly, by the way, because volitional words and acts begin with a thought.

Few thoughts are totally disconnected from the outer world either. If I feel anger or greed, folks around me will tend to pick up on the fact.

A South Asian Buddhist Teacher explains it this way ...

Every kammic action, as soon as it is performed, first of all affects the doer of the deed himself. This holds with as much truth for bodily and verbal deeds directed towards others as it does for volitional thoughts that do not find outward expression. ... [The good thoughts] will ennoble his mind, even more so if he responds to the negative reception with forgiveness and forbearance rather than anger and resentment.

... The bad deed and words, and the thoughts motivating them may fail to harm the other, but they will not fail to have a damaging effect on the character of the doer; and it will affect him even worse if he reacts to the unexpected response by rage or a feeling of resentful frustration. Hence the Buddha says that beings are the responsible owners of their kamma which is their inalienable property. They are the only legitimate heirs of their actions, inheriting their legacy of good or bad fruits.

It will be a wholesome practice to remind oneself often of the fact that one's deeds, words and thoughts first of all act upon and alter one's own mind. Reflecting thus will give a strong impetus to true self-respect, which is preserved by protecting oneself against everything mean and evil.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/kammafruit.html

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Meian]

Hi Marcos,

I cannot speak with any authority on this, not from a Buddhist perspective. From other perspectives, I know that thoughts have energy and power. If I am thinking loving, kind thoughts towards people, they tend to feel it. If I am thinking angry, hurtful thoughts about people, they tend to feel that also. They may not know why, but they will feel the negativity. It's like walking into a room of people who are in a bad mood, and you feel the bad mood, even if it's not about you. Or you walk into a room of happy people, and you feel the positive atmosphere, even if it's not about you, you will feel the positive energy and feel better. Thoughts have energy. We all play a part in that, in contributing to the overall mood and atmosphere of the world. We can make it better in our own small way. No, thoughts are not actions, but they contribute to the "mood atmosphere" and can become actions in some way. I look at it as the butterfly effect, but that's just my perspective. So atoning for our thoughts is like "clearing the air" in a way. That's how I see it. Just my 2 cents.

Look at it from a different angle. I just made a file of the Daily Metta Practice from another thread, one that Jundo put together a while back. I think Jundo's post explains this concept of loving thoughts more clearly, from a different view. I'm attaching it here if it helps anyone. I'm going to print it out for myself.



Ooops, did not realize that Jundo had just responded ..... My apologies.

Gassho
Kim
Sat today

[Zenmei]

Marcos,

The thoughts I atone for are not the transient thoughts that I let pass, but the ones I latch onto and actually believe.
When we believe a thought, whether positive or negative, that has an effect on our subconscious, and will affect our thoughts in the future. It's internal karma. Not that there's really a distinction between internal and external, it's all just karma.
It's part of the idea of nurturing seeds that's one of our Treeleaf practices. We nurture positive seeds, we get positive results. Nurture negative seeds, negative results.

Grasshoppers, Dudley
#sat

[RichardH]

I am a student here, a junior trainee, so please take this with a grain of salt.

I would like to respond from personal experience on this topic. Following on what Jundo said, I have found that the "internal" thought ecology, the thought environment in here, conditions the world I see out there in an immediate way. I do not mean this in the idealistic sense that the world is imaginary. Somehow there is a "world", regardless. But most of what I see is defined by my thoughts. Each morning I have the option of seeing the world new and open, full of possibility for healing, or bound by a fixed narrative, stale, and oppressive. Anger, for instance, makes me very stupid, shutting out so much and leaving just a tunnel vision of the world.

I can't always help what kind of mental environment is in here, sometimes it just has to pass through like weather, but the practice of atonement helps very much. Every day.


Gassho
Daizan

sat today

[derek12261984]

I think there have been a lot of great answers given here, but allow me to give you my take on the matter. Before I started meditation certain thoughts would often repeat themselves in my mind. They would replay on an endless loop and I often felt that they would effect my mood. Even though you may never actually live out a negative thought it plants a seed in your mind that will later blossom into some sort of action. For instance if I'm stressed about something at work, the thoughts associated with work could have a direct impact on my performance or how I treat others. Never underestimate the power of your own mind as it can be a fickle beast at times. Anyway, that's just my take on the matter.

Gassho
Derek
#sat2day

[Jundo]

This may be a good place to mention an old thread ...

SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: ATONEMENT / AT-ONE-MENT

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?8087-SIT-A-LONG-with-JUNDO-ATONEMENT-AT-ONE-MENT

... to live from only one such perspective ... that there are mistakes, or that there is never any mistake ... would be a BIG MISTAKE! Fortunately, we BUDDHA-NOT-BUDDHAS can live by knowing life as each at once ... with no mistake or harm possible, yet repairing what needs to be repaired as best we can.

Thus, we ATONE. Thus, All is At-ONE.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Tanjin]

Hello all:

The concept of atonement is really bound up with personal prejudice I have towards Judeo-Christian notions of sin and repentance because of the inherent judement and guilt that flows from that approach. As such, I am looking forward to our upcoming study of the precepts as a way for me to explore my own understanding of moral responsibility in the context of Buddhist ethics.

Gassho,
Jimmy
Sattoday

[Jundo]

Hello all:

The concept of atonement is really bound up with personal prejudice I have towards Judeo-Christian notions of sin and repentance because of the inherent judement and guilt that flows from that approach. As such, I am looking forward to our upcoming study of the precepts as a way for me to explore my own understanding of moral responsibility in the context of Buddhist ethics.

Gassho,
Jimmy
Sattoday

Hi Jimmy,

I would not get too caught up in Judeo-Christian words that translators borrowed to translated the original Asian words. Even this "atonement/at-one-ment" is just word play that several modern Zen teachers have spotted and made use of.

You can just change "atone" to "regretting" or "gosh, will try not to do so again" or the like, whatever you wish.

The Sino-Japanese original word is Sange (懺悔), meaning to "regret," "feel remorse," or "repent". The Christian missionaries use the same word for phrases such as "repent for sins" or "confess in the confessional", but it does not have to have that meaning in Buddhism.

Anyway, however ya call it, just be sorry, fix what one can and try not to again.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Meian]

I appreciate Jimmy's perspective, as I have recently come to a place of no longer needing belief in a god or savior to feel "whole" or "safe", actually letting go of needing any external divinity. It makes me uncomfortable now to attempt this.

That being said, Jundo's definition of atonement works well for me, as in, it makes sense to me. It's the definition I've been working with instead of the Judeo-Christian one for a while now. I've done that with several concepts - replaced Judeo-Christian concepts with Buddhist or maybe humanist versions that make more sense to me.

Thank you for sharing.

Gassho
Kim sat today

[Tanjin]

Hi Jimmy,

I would not get too caught up in Judeo-Christian words that translators borrowed to translated the original Asian words. Even this "atonement/at-one-ment" is just word play that several modern Zen teachers have spotted and made use of.

You can just change "atone" to "regretting" or "gosh, will try not to do so again" or the like, whatever you wish.

The Sino-Japanese original word is Sange (懺悔), meaning to "regret," "feel remorse," or "repent". The Christian missionaries use the same word for phrases such as "repent for sins" or "confess in the confessional", but it does not have to have that meaning in Buddhism.

Anyway, however ya call it, just be sorry, fix what one can and try not to again.

Gassho, J

SatToday

Thank you Jundo for the feedback and encouragement!

Gassho,
Jimmy
SatToday