Can enlightenment experiences be trusted?

[Kaibo]

I have the feeling that the Buddhist concepts of timelessness, interconnectedness, no-self etc. are written from the perspective of enlightenment experiences. To a certain extent I understand these concepts and actually they make quite a lot of sense. But I can only understand them so far, because I haven’t had any enlightenment experiences to that degree. My personal problem is that I don’t think what people see during enlightenment experiences has to be objectively true (probably because I haven’t experienced any). What’s the difference between such an experience and a near-death-experience? I wouldn’t believe the latter to be literally true either.

I guess my concern is that Buddhist concepts are based on non-provable personal experiences which I can’t trust. On the other hand, as I said, they make more sense than any other concept I’ve come across. So I clearly want to follow the Buddhist path (because all in all I think it’s awesome, Zazen has convinced me that it can help me a whole lot, and so on). But probably deep down I fear that I will be let down / feel betrayed at some point as has happened to me with Christianity (my childhood faith). This upsets me quite a bit.

Could you please share some thoughts with me on that?
Could I follow the Buddhist path without really getting what’s behind timelessness, interconnectedness, no-self etc.?

Thank you
Dita
Sat today

[Jundo]

Hi Dita,

When one experiences the intimate wholeness and interpenetration of all things, such is just intimately obvious ... whole and interflowing, beyond and as and right through me and you, this and that and the other, past present future, life and death. There is little to argue about, as if tasting vanilla and knowing the delicious sweetness. Is ice cream open for debate?

There is little philosophically to argue about, for even the sciences such as physics and biology show us the wholeness and interpenetrating nature of this world. All things are the one ... so "oney" that not even need for such a "one" name. No, they are not "objectively" true, for all embodies and transcends "subject" and "object" and everything beyond and in between.

What? You think that there are only two things in this world? Dita and everything not Dita? Dita and not Dita are Ditto and Dios.

The Great Whole Interflowing which is all individuated things yet not ... What a wonderful way to know thyself!

Gassho, J

SatToday

-
I might lock this thread now, there being so much nothing more to say or in need of saying.

Could I follow the Buddhist path without really getting what’s behind timelessness, interconnectedness, no-self etc.?

Sure, there is a lot to Buddhism that just involves just being kind and nice and gentle. But if you stick with this long enough, such Wisdom will fill your bones.

[Myosha]

Hello,

Ditto.


Gassho
Myosha
sat today

[Eishuu]

As I understand it the Buddha said something along the lines of 'Don't trust anything I say, try it yourself and see' (sorry, bad paraphrasing). I think what he meant was just keep practising and sooner or later you will probably see what I'm on about. It's not about concepts; it's about experience in my opinion. Maybe it takes some faith at the beginning and the fear of being let down seems natural - it's the ego saying 'will I get what I want out of this?'. That's my take on it anyway.

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

[Myosha]

Can enlightenment experiences be trusted?

Hello,

Someone remembers the master's name, awoken in the middle of the night, by a student who felt an "enlightenment".

The student said, "I dreamed and must share it with you!!"

Master said, "No, you don't."

And shut the door.


Gassho
Myosha
sat today

[Jishin]

Hi Dita,

In the beginning there is nothing. In the end there is nothing. Don't make enlightenment in your head and you wont have to worry about it. When this happens you will be able to be at ease with whatever you are doing. You will chop wood and fetch water with singleminded purpose. No subject or object. Just...

That said, there is no name for this. To call it something, anything at all misses the mark. There is no "enlightenment".

My unenlightened opinion.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

The talk just posted by Sam Harris is also worth a listen. What he says about Vipassana Practice is so for Shikantaza as well too ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14662-Religious-Labels&p=183497#post183497

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Enjaku]

This is such an interesting thought. Thank you for sharing, Dita.

It reminds me of something I read years ago in a (non-Buddhist) book about walking. The author talked about how people increasingly need to consult a map, pick a destination (or even get a dog!) to justify walking. His point was that, by believing we need a reason to walk, we risk losing the experience of just walking.

Right now, I'm content to mindfully meander along the Buddhist path, aiming to cultivate a kind of naive curiosity... If I experience enlightenment en route - I'll take that as a bonus :-)

Gassho,
Sat,
Alex

[Meishin]

The talk just posted by Sam Harris is also worth a listen. What he says about Vipassana Practice is so for Shikantaza as well too ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14662-Religious-Labels&p=183497#post183497

Gassho, J


SatToday

Wonderful video, thanks for posting, Jundo. I don't think Sam Harris is a member of or identifies with any religious/spiritual group. Is that correct?

Gassho
Meishin
sat today

[Kyonin]

Hi Ditta,

We all come across a lot of questions on our paths. Once I was also concerned about those crazy and cosmic experiences Masters claim to have. Then sometimes I think they all talk a lot when they should just remain silent.

Sometimes there are very special moments in our zazen. Most of the times is just noise and thoughts. And then one day clarity comes if only for a few seconds. Then life gets back to normal.

So we study the dharma, sit zazen and take what we learn to our lives. That's all there is to it, I guess.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Jundo]

It reminds me of something I read years ago in a (non-Buddhist) book about walking. The author talked about how people increasingly need to consult a map, pick a destination (or even get a dog!) to justify walking. His point was that, by believing we need a reason to walk, we risk losing the experience of just walking.

Right now, I'm content to mindfully meander along the Buddhist path, aiming to cultivate a kind of naive curiosity... If I experience enlightenment en route - I'll take that as a bonus :-)

By the way, a good time to repost this reMINDer that "enlightenment experiences" are not the end of the Roadless Road ... nor even really necessary to get us where we are 'Non-Going' ...

These experiences can be light and deep and beyond light or deep. This can be much more profound and enveloping than a sensation of "I" feeling oneness or awe. HOWEVER, that does not matter because, generally in Soto, we consider all such experiences as passing scenery ... just a visit to the wonders of the Grand Canyon. One cannot stay there, as lovely as it is. Nice and educational place to visit ... would not, should not, could not truly live there. One can even live perfectly well never having visited the vast Canyon at all. The most important thing is to get on the bus, get on with the trip, get on with life from there. In our Soto Way, the WHOLE TRIP is Enlightenment when realized as such (that is the True "Kensho"!) ... not some momentary stop or passing scene or some final destination. ...

For Soto Folks, when we realize such ... every moment of the Buddha-Bus trip, the scenery out the windows (both what we encounter as beautiful and what appears ugly), the moments of good health and moments of passing illness, the highway, the seats and windows, all the other passengers on the Bus who appear to be riding with us, when we board and someday when we are let off ... the whole Trip ... is all the Buddha-Bus, all Enlightenment and Kensho, all the "destination" beyond "coming" or "going" or "getting there", when realized as such (Kensho). This ride is what we make it.

More here:

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12641-Faces-in-the-carpet&p=134787&viewfull=1#post134787

We tend to cherish these insights, learn from them ... yet move on, certainly not clinging or chasing after such in our Way. Even when encountering a powerful life changing vision, insight or other spiritual experience, we generally Bow to that, Appreciate such, learn from such and move on.

However, it is also possible for Wisdom and Compassion to sink into the bones without such experiences, just as well and even in a more lasting way. One can be drenched to the bone in a sudden downpour that eventually dries up, or soaked thoroughly to the bone walking steadily threw the mist.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Myosha]

"One can be drenched to the bone in a sudden downpour that eventually dries up, or soaked thoroughly to the bone walking steadily through the mist. "

Hello,

During a rain storm Nana would chide, "You only get wet once!"


Gassho
Myosha
sat today

[Enjaku]

Thanks Jundo.
Sat. Gassho,
Alex

[Kaibo]

Thank you everyone for all of your answers. They mean a lot to me, every answer contains something worth remembering. "Getting soaked thoroughly to the bone walking steadily through the mist" is a wonderful image. I'm starting to understand the difference between understanding Buddhism intellectually through books and experiencing it through zazen.
Your posts help me to concentrate on zazen (and yes, I still experience the world as divided in Dita and not Dita, but who knows, maybe that will change).
Thank you so much
Dita
Sat today

[Kaishin]

Buddhism can't "let you down" if you don't let it pick you up! Don't get tangled in -isms; no need to be an -ist. More labels, more baggage. Just practice the way of the ancestors and live upright, and expect to fail, every day for the rest of your life.

-satToday