Scratching an itch

[Shindo]

Re: Scratching an itch

Thank you Jundo for your comprehensive response to Harry & I am duly admonished for looking up the dictionary definition of zazen. :?

Regards

Jools

[Jundo]

Re: Scratching an itch

I understand (I think ), that moments of the feelings/state of zazen can follow me into the day, but I didn't think these were zazen perse, just echos.

Happy to be corrected

Kind regards

Jools

If you write your book report from the Encyclopedia, the teacher will flunk you! :wink:

No, everything and all times are Zazen. That does not me we do not have to cross the legs and face the wall. Kind of a Koan.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo]

Re: Scratching an itch

Jundo,

Yes, of course. But 'the big view' should not make the very real practicalities of the practice all mushy, in my opinion. I think the practice comes to us in this form for very good, practical reasons.

There's a middle way between the 'posture fetishists' and the obvious benifits of good posture in practice... for one, sitting for an extended period with a bad posture, or with a 'perfect' posture which does not suit your body, will likely injure you. 'Good posture' is relative to our conditions (as is 'bad').

I don't believe its appropriate to consider Zazen as 'Zazen' while we actually do it in the same way that if we really want to bounce a ball or change a tyre we should just bounce the ball or change the tyre. We can consider them 'Zazen' if we wish, but... why?

Regards,

Harry.

Hi Harry,

I agree. Posture is vital. But I think we have to keep a couple of things in mind about the history of the Lotus Position itself, its real benefits and purposes, monastery life, the Japanese tendency to fetishize the "correct" way (yarikata) to do things, and the Buddha's and Dogen's central philosophical perspectives on Practice.

Yes, the Lotus Position has been the traditional yogic position for meditation for thousands of years, even before the time of the Buddha. And certainly the Buddha sat that way (as every statue of a sitting Buddha demonstrates). And certainly there are tremendous benefits to the posture in providing balance and stability conducive to 'dropping body and mind' and engaging in balanced, stable Zazen. In that posture, we literally can give no thought to the body. The comfort and balance of the body is directly connected, and conducive to, comfort and balance of mind.

But I would hesitate to go much further in attributing any special power or physical effect to the position itself.

First off, I believe the Buddha himself sat that way because, well, he needed to sit some way for hours on end -- and the "lotus position" was then the custom in India for how people sat on the ground and very good for marathon sitting. It is a good way to sit on a rock or under a tree, which is what folks did back then (in fact, he may have sat with his posterior flat on the ground, by the way, without a cushion or 'Zafu' ... which is very different from how we sit). As I said, it is very balanced and stable. But there is no evidence in the early Sutras and Shastras that he himself ever focused on the position itself as having some special power, always emphasizing the philosophical and psychological aspects of Buddhist philosophy far over the purely physical. Certainly, he did not encourage engaging in any other yoga positions as were common in India at the time (e.g., we do not stand on our heads as a normal part of practice), so I do not think he was a great proponent of the positional type of yoga itself.

When Buddhism spread to China, Japan and other countries, I believe that people continued to follow the custom. However, even then there has been a tremendous degree of small variations in the details of the Lotus Posture, e.g., hand position, back angle and such.

Now, when Zazen came to Dogen, well, it came to a fellow who also left us with detailed instructions about how to carry our towels in the washroom, clean our nose, bow, place incense, use a pillow while sleeping and wipe ourselves in the toilet. Dogen, like many Japanese of ancient and modern times, was something of a control freak who emphasized that there is "one right way" to do things (the aforementioned (yarikata). I have seen Japanese get the same way about the proper way to wear socks and enter an elevator. Here is that wonderful short film that makes fun of it (I know that you have seen it 100 times):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... i5CQ&hl=en

and here is another

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjuD52s0GBs&feature=related[/video]]

... re=related

Now, that is not a bad thing, mind you, for Zen Practice. Don't get me wrong. It is the same mentality exactly as in "Oryoki" meal taking in a Zen monastery by which the simple act of eating requires dozens and dozens of set gestures that must be mastered in the body memory. It is conducive to many aspects of Practice, including focused mindfulness. Sitting in a set way such as the Lotus Posture has the same benefits of allowing the action itself to be forgotten as it is mastered by the body memory.

Also, of course, in a monastery ... like in army boot camp ... you don't want folks just running around and flopping down any which way they feel, eating and sleeping whenever they wish. Quite the contrary. Discipline is required, so naturally, is the demand that everyone march around the monastery and sit in exactly the same way.

If you look at Shobogenzo and other writings by Dogen, he actually spends very little time explaining the details of how to sit. In Fukanzazengi, for example, he explains the barebones act of sitting on a pillow, crossing the legs and such ... but for sentence after sentence after sentence he is focused on the "cosmic significance" of Zazen and the mental game. It is much the same when he describes how to carry a towel in the bath, wear our robes, bow or go to the toilet. He describes the procedure, but then is much more focused on the philosophical view of the act.

Bouncing a ball or changing a tire --is-- Zazen itself. Dogen was clear on that. Of course, you do not have monks changing tires or bouncing balls too much in daily monastery life, so Dogen did not talk about those. But he did talk about the equivalent for monastery life, namely, cooking food as the Tenzo, washing the floors, etc. Dogen was crystal clear that the Lotus Position is the whole universe, the whole universe and all the Buddhas and Ancestors are sitting in the Lotus Position when you and I so sit ... but he was also clear that EVERYTHING is the Lotus Position. It is clear that Dogen, too, loved the perfection of the Lotus Posture ... but there is very little talk, if any, in his writing about the power of the position itself (do not confuse statements about the philosophical power of the position with his asserting that some energy or effect arises from the position itself ... you will not find much of that).

In my view, Dogen's real message ... and the real message of Zen practice ... is not that there is only "one way" to do something in this vast universe. It is that "one thing" should be done with our whole heart-mind as the "one and only act in that one moment" in this vast universe. That is what Dogen was saying.

My teacher, Nishijima, considers the Lotus Position a pure action, one pure thing. He recommends everyone to sit in the Lotus Position if at all possible. I do too (too many westerners get lazy or scared and don't really try, or give it sufficient time). But these days, in Zazen, Westerners have begun sitting other ways such as in seiza or on chairs (I only recommend this if there is a physical limitation whereby one cannot sit in the Lotus Posture). I believe that body-mind can be dropped away in those positions too if done with balance and stability.

An overly fetishized focus on the miracles of the Lotus Position itself is misplaced and misunderstands Dogen's intent.

Anyway, that is my position (pun intended). I won't budge.

Gassho, Jundo

[will]

Re: Scratching an itch

H

Glum "Zen" silence

So which glum silence do you prefer? :|

G,W

[Fuken]

Re: Scratching an itch

:wink:

[Fuken]

Re: Scratching an itch

No Koans! :evil:

Sorry, Harry, I am a little bussy to get down in the weeds. Besides, if you start analyzing it, or talking about it, it will become ever more finely divided, and there will be no end.

Just wanted to throw my $0.02 in. Man the greenback isin't worth much today.

Gassho,
Jordan

[Fuken]

Re: Scratching an itch

Sometimes I like the word “Dwell” or even “Abide.”

Gassho,
Jordan

[Shindo]

Re: Scratching an itch

Forgive me - I am a little confused. The Britannica Concise Encyclopedia defines zazen as:

Sitting meditation as practiced in Zen Buddhism. The disciple sits in a quiet room, breathing rhythmically and easily, with legs fully or half crossed, spine and head erect, hands folded one palm above the other, and eyes open. Logical, analytic thinking is suspended, as are all desires, attachments, and judgments, leaving the mind in a state of relaxed attention. The practice was brought to prominence by Dogen, who considered it not only to be a method of moving toward enlightenment but also, if properly experienced, to constitute enlightenment itself.

I understand (I think ), that moments of the feelings/state of zazen can follow me into the day, but I didn't think these were zazen perse, just echos.

Happy to be corrected

Kind regards

Jools

[Jundo]

Re: Scratching an itch

Hi,

Doesn't the term 'Zazen' mean 'sitting meditation'? Likewise 'shikantaza' translates as 'just sitting', 'thoroughly sitting', so the 'sitting' is obviously an element. Does this mean just sitting on a bar stool eating nuts somewhere? No, it means sitting in the transmitted posture of body/mind.

I don't doubt we can perform 'scratching meditation', 'itching meditation', 'paint-your-ass-green-and-stand-on-your-tippytoes meditation'..., but that's not Zazen or shikantaza.

The posture of Zazen/shikantaza is a very specific pose, with specific effects, which came from pre-Buddhist yogic practice. Its a posture of body/mind, not just one or the other. Its not just any old thing; although I do certainly think the effects of Zazen can pervade other actions.

Regards,

Harry.

Harry, you know enough about Dogen to realize that "sitting" means the entire universe, standing, reclining, walking or flying through the air.

The true meaning of "Full Lotus" is all being-space-time, my friend.

I am not a fetishist for the posture itself, and I believe that some Soto Practitioners lose Dogen's real point on that issue. They cannot see the forest for the trees, or "all of reality" for the posture.

"just sit to sit, without thought of this and that and the other thing, seeing through self/other, now/then, dropping likes and dislikes, without goal or thoughts of achievement, without profit from the sitting, not thinking that one should better be doing something else ... sitting as the one perfectly-what-it-is act at that one moment, the only moment in the whole universe and the whole universe sitting in this one moment etc. etc. etc. ... if you bounce a ball or change a tire with this perspective, it is "Zazen". But if you cross the legs and straigten the back in the Lotus Position, yet lack such perspective, you have merely tangled legs and a tangled mind.

Gassho, Jundo

[Shindo]

Re: Scratching an itch

Hi Harry

although I do certainly think the effects of Zazen can pervade other actions.

absolutely, I agree with that & have experienced it - on a good day

Cheers

Jools

[Ryumon]

Re: Scratching an itch

Thanks for addressing my question in today's talk.

FWIW, we have those big-ass mosquitoes here in the Alps, and I understand that they don't bite. It's the little ones that bite. (Apparently, only female mosquitoes bite.)

Kirk

[will]

Re: Scratching an itch

I don't itch much when sitting.

G,W

[Jundo]

Re: Scratching an itch

When you scratch, just scratch. When you itch, just itch.

Gassho, Jundo

[Ryumon]

Re: Scratching an itch

As far as I understand, we _can_ do anything, just the goal is to do it mindfully...

Kirk

[Longdog]

Re: Scratching an itch

Good point Kirk :wink:

But we could use that as a reason to do anything really, couldn't we? May be there is a fine line between mindfully scratching an itch, shooing a fly or what ever and the mind making us fidget?

In gassho, Kev