Compassion and Sympathy

[jtlewis]

Hello Jundo and Treeleaf,

I definitely am one to read more and say less (lately nothing at all). I will try to be better about becoming a more active member of this Sangha. There are so may knowledgeable members here; that I feel silly not reaching out more when questions arise. I do apologize for my prolonged silence and will do my best to become a better student and friend here .

In this practice I was curious on what the views are regarding the relationship between compassion and sympathy. Is it alright for one to have the desire and willingness to help others without needing all the details as to why help is needed? Or does one need to have sympathy for the situation so as to not offer help as a means of pacification?

Not to be too personal, but we had family members staying with us over the weekend and they are not in the best of ways personally and financially (part their own doing, part their circumstances). We were able to help them with some car troubles, but I caught myself feeling that I was doing so just to help them to get on their way rather than helping for the sake of helping.

It has been bothering me that I felt that way. While I don't agree with some of their life decisions and choices - they are apart of my family and I do need to keep that in mind.

Any insights anyone may have would be greatly appreciated in helping me learn from my mistake and work towards letting go of my reservations.

Thank you all,

Gassho,

Josh.

Sat Today

[Jakuden]

Hi Josh,
Sometimes helping helps everybody, the helper included! Which I think is fine! But it's a great question, I am interested to hear what others have to say about the importance of right intention. Perhaps as practice continues, we realize more and more that there is no separation between "us" and "others," so helping just happens without the need to analyze motives at all.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Tai Shi]

Josh--I understand your situation. I have found similar situations in family and friends. So I am learning to set boundaries. I have found that if I don't offer of our time and money, family and friends not sincere with me leave me alone. I never give money. However if someone is hungry, I will buy them food. For me it was important to learn to set boundaries. This was difficult all my life. So now I find that others don't call or visit, and how could they understand the choices I have made especially wit my devotion to Zen Buddhism--also I am disabled--no one except professionals, my wife's family, my wife, and daughter understand me especially the loving care of my wife. My father also tries to understand my physical situations, but he does no understand my emotions outside of our relationship. I love my father very much, and he would never understand parts of my life. So I hope this has been some help. Take care as you travel the road to your happy destiny.

Tai Shi
std
Gassho

[Jishin]

Compassion and Sympathy

Simple. Ask how you can help. Then do what you can.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Mp]

Simple. Ask how you can help. Then do what you can.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Hello Josh ... Jishin puts it quite well. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Eishuu]

I agree with Jishin. Ask what you can do.

I may be going off on a tangent here, but personally I am not keen on the word 'sympathy'. I feel it has connotations of 'feeling sorry for'. I prefer the word 'empathy' and it's implication of being present with someone else's suffering. Also you don't have to feel a certain way, it's just about being there without judgements, listening, asking questions, making space for their experience and pain. Just being willing to listen without trying to make it better or fix it can feel incredibly supportive. After that, ask if there is anything practical they need. (just my take on it...this is how I would like my family members to respond to me while I am having problems)

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

[Tai Shi]

Hi All, wondering if a second post might clarify,

When Jtlewis indicated questions of empathy and sympathy, this Sangha seems to side with recipients, and perhaps empathy is the best path. As Jishin said "Ask how you can help, and do what you can." Yes this is good advice. In my own case, and I speak only for myself, my therapist pointed out that I had a pattern of doing to please or manipulating situations. I trust my therapist is the best for me, and he observed that I was learning to set limits. I had a pattern of giving to everyone without regard to practical needs, so I have learned to only help where I can.

Tai Shi
sat this morning
Gassho

[Jundo]

I agree with Jishin. Ask what you can do.

I may be going off on a tangent here, but personally I am not keen on the word 'sympathy'. I feel it has connotations of 'feeling sorry for'. I prefer the word 'empathy' and it's implication of being present with someone else's suffering. Also you don't have to feel a certain way, it's just about being there without judgements, listening, asking questions, making space for their experience and pain. Just being willing to listen without trying to make it better or fix it can feel incredibly supportive. After that, ask if there is anything practical they need. (just my take on it...this is how I would like my family members to respond to me while I am having problems)

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

I would say the above as well.

I would also say that compassion, empathy, charity and all related virtues do not mean that we can or would do everything that everyone wants or asks for. To put it in traditional Buddhist terms, we cannot fix all the suffering which a person is undergoing as the effects of their own Karma. I may walk past a specific homeless individual with a reasonable suspicion that money might be used for alcohol or inefficiently, and instead choose to donate to a soup kitchen to feed healthy food to many. I might emphasize (as I am coming to do more and more) working for real social change in institutions, medical infrastructure and social values that would benefit millions as the only real solution to homelessness and related problems for the greatest number of people. On an individual level, I may sometimes offer help to someone in some ways, but not in others in which I believe they should help themselves and take responsibility for their own lives (I will not help someone with money if I feel it is going to be wasted because of their way of living and questionable lifestyle choices). I will help children and the disabled over healthy adults when I feel that the latter could do more to change their situation and take care of themselves. In other words, I choose in giving.

Within those parameters, I would ask what I can do, then do what I feel is proper and actually helpful.

Intention is important in our actions, so giving in order to "get rid" of someone (such as by tossing a coin to a beggar just in order for them to go away) is not the same as helping out of genuine concern.

The Buddha, as depicted in the old Suttas, was living in the squalor and inequality of ancient India, a class based society in which it would have been impossible to end all human need. He comes across as rather conservative on questions of charity, donations (often emphasizing donations to the religious practitioners ahead of the rest of society) and personal responsibility. He emphasizes people finding themselves in situations because of their own past Karma. It is frequently as if he felt, in that flavor of Buddhism, that the world and its needs were so great that the only real solution was not to be reborn in this world. An example is the Issattha Sutta and his advice to a King ...

At Savatthi. As he was sitting to one side, King Pasenadi Kosala said to the Blessed One: "Where, lord, should a gift be given?"

"Wherever the mind feels confidence, great king."

"But a gift given where, lord, bears great fruit?"

"This [question] is one thing, great king — 'Where should a gift be given?' — while this — 'A gift given where bears great fruit?' — is something else entirely. What is given to a virtuous person — rather than to an unvirtuous one — bears great fruit. In that case, great king, I will ask you a counter-question. Answer as you see fit.

"What do you think, great king? There is the case where you have a war at hand, a battle imminent. A noble-warrior youth would come along — untrained, unpracticed, undisciplined, undrilled, fearful, terrified, cowardly, quick to flee. Would you take him on? Would you have any use for a man like that?"

"No, lord, I wouldn't take him on. I wouldn't have any use for a man like that."

"Then a brahman youth... a merchant youth... a laborer youth would come along — untrained, unpracticed, undisciplined, undrilled, fearful, terrified, cowardly, quick to flee. Would you take him on? Would you have any use for a man like that?"

"No, lord, I wouldn't take him on. I wouldn't have any use for a man like that."

...

"Then [a noble-warrior youth], a brahman youth... a merchant youth... a laborer youth would come along — trained, practiced, disciplined, drilled, fearless, unterrified, not cowardly, not quick to flee. Would you take him on? Would you have any use for a man like that?"

"Yes, lord, I would take him on. I would have use for a man like that."

"In the same way, great king. When someone has gone forth from the home life into homelessness — no matter from what clan — and he has abandoned five factors and is endowed with five, what is given to him bears great fruit.

"And which five factors has he abandoned? He has abandoned sensual desire... ill will... sloth & drowsiness... restlessness & anxiety... uncertainty. These are the five factors he has abandoned. And with which five factors is he endowed? He is endowed with the aggregate of virtue of one beyond training... the aggregate of concentration of one beyond training... the aggregate of discernment of one beyond training... the aggregate of release of one beyond training... the aggregate of knowledge & vision of release of one beyond training. These are the five factors with which he is endowed.

"What is given to one who has abandoned five factors and is endowed with five factors in this way bears great fruit."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....024.than.html

In the Sigalovada Sutta, the Buddha advised lay people on what to do with their wealth ...

"And what six ways of squandering wealth are to be avoided? Young man, heedlessness caused by intoxication, roaming the streets at inappropriate times, habitual partying, compulsive gambling, bad companionship, and laziness are the six ways of squandering wealth. ... "These are the six dangers inherent in heedlessness caused by intoxication: loss of immediate wealth, increased quarreling, susceptibility to illness, disrepute, indecent exposure, and weakened insight. ... These are the six dangers inherent in laziness: saying, 'It's too cold,' one does not work; saying, 'It's too hot,' one does not work; saying, 'It's too late,' one does not work; saying, 'It's too early,' one does not work; saying, 'I'm too hungry,' one does not work; saying, 'I'm too full,' one does not work. With an abundance of excuses for not working, new wealth does not accrue and existing wealth goes to waste.

...

The wise endowed with virtue
Shine forth like a burning fire,
Gathering wealth as bees do honey
And heaping it up like an ant hill.
Once wealth is accumulated,
Family and household life may follow.

By dividing wealth into four parts,
True friendships are bound;
One part should be enjoyed;
Two parts invested in business;
And the fourth set aside
Against future misfortunes."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit...31.0.ksw0.html

In that Teaching too, the Buddha neglects to mention social charity, although he does mention assistance to family and employees in one's own household and business and religious practitioners:

"In five ways should friends and colleagues as the northern direction be respected: by generosity, kind words, acting for their welfare, impartiality, and honesty. And, friends and colleagues so respected reciprocate with compassion in five ways: by protecting you when you are vulnerable, and likewise your wealth, being a refuge when you are afraid, not abandoning you in misfortunes, and honoring all your descendants. ... In five ways should ascetics and Brahmans as the upper direction be respected: by kindly actions, speech, and thoughts, having an open door, and providing material needs."

We live in very different social and economic times now from the Buddha. I believe there is more demanded of us to work real social change to eliminate economic and social inequality and injustice in this world today. Yet, we are still left with the need, as in the Buddha's time, to make real and sometimes difficult choices about where charity should be best spent.

I wish I had some simple answer for you, but it was a complicated question in the historical Buddha's time, as it is now.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Mp]

Intention is important in our actions, so giving in order to "get rid" of someone (such as by tossing a coin to a beggar just in order for them to go away) is not the same as helping out of genuine concern.

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Koushu]

I too agree with Jishin. But I will add a little more about the thought that has brought this dialogue to bear. By helping this family member has forced you to question your intentions, it has caused you to reflect upon your own practice and possibly your life. By learning from this most natural process you have helped other and intern they have helped you to grow.


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[Rich]

If I can cause someone to smile, cause an uplift of their spirit, then I've given a great gift. At a traffic light I signaled a homeless person to approach and asked if he accepted coins, a huge grateful smile 😊 and laugh appeared as I gave him a huge handful of coins. Being so connected to a stranger uplifted both our spirits.

Sat today

[Ongen]

If I can cause someone to smile, cause an uplift of their spirit, then I've given a great gift. At a traffic light I signaled a homeless person to approach and asked if he accepted coins, a huge grateful smile �� and laugh appeared as I gave him a huge handful of coins. Being so connected to a stranger uplifted both our spirits.

Sat today

Deep bows


Gassho
Ongen

Sat today

[jtlewis]

Just wanted to take a moment to thank you all for you wonderful insight into my question and concerns. As Jundo pointed out I do feel I was trying to sweep the issue under the rug by offering help for the sake of my own satisfaction - and not addressing the real issues at hand. It is a valuable lesson that I will take with me as I walk this path - with myself, my family and with all of you.

I shall do my best to be present in the moment, ask what I can do to help and offer what I can with the fullest of my intent.

Deep Bows To You All,

Joshua

Sat Today

[Rich]

I make a point now to connect with people I meet in public, especially service people. It's really spontaneous and I smile and ask them how they are and thank them for their service. It's amazing sometimes the transformation that occurs in both of us. Not planned, more spontaneous.

Sat today

[Meishin]

I see a lot of people who work in call centers. They describe their work as constant pressure punctuated by nasty remarks by callers (and supervisors). They say they are anxious, afraid they will make a mistake. They are depressed. Most feel that they have no options, no other jobs they could take to support their families. So it is a constant reminder when I need to call someone myself. As Rich described, I ask how it's going, how's the day, just something. When we're done, I thank them for their help. They almost always seem to appreciate the gesture -- that it's not just another angry customer. Doesn't take much from me, but brightens their day a little.

Gassho
Meishin
sat today