Writing and teaching about zen?

[voylinux]

Hi everybody!

After a conversation on Kyonin, I was thinking about something that comes to my mind ... there is so much work to do in our language (spanish) for the dharma.

I am a blogger and I love witting on my blog and when I could make I love to give dharma talks and tell people stories about zen and what I have learned.

But now I think that maybe it is not such a good idea for me to make. I mean, I love it, but it is also true that I am not an "expert" or "authorized" person on zen and buddhism. So maybe I write something wich is just my point of view or something I am compleatly wrong about it could be confusing or a bad message for people not experienced with zen and buddhism.

I love Kyonin's blog, for example, but it is different. When I read it, it is very clear for me that a very experienced zen student is writting it.

What do you think about it. Should I try to continue writting about that (maybe even more) and share my dharma point of view or maybe I should leave that for masters and / or monks?

[Myosha]

Hello,

Might recommend asking Jundo's blessing . . . THEN bang it out.


Gassho
Myosha
sat today

[Jundo]

Hmmm. I might make it clear that you are writing as a practitioner, and are not a priest or authorized teacher in a lineage. Why? It is just so that people reading your blog have some understanding of who you are and who is writing, your experience and where the opinions come from.

Some practitioners can write better and offer wiser advice than many priests ... but it is like someone who is not a licensed lawyer offering legal guidance (even if it is good guidance) or someone not a doctor offering medical advice. Okay, in my book, so long as one makes clear that one is writing from the patient's position, not as a doctor. This is true even if the medical advice from the non-doctor is good.

Again, the only reason is to be fair to readers about who you are and what basis your opinions have. They be fine and wise words no matter who writes them, or foolish words no matter who writes them.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Kyosei]

(...)Some practitioners can write better and offer wiser advice than many priests ... but it is like someone who is not a licensed lawyer offering legal guidance (even if it is good guidance) or someone not a doctor offering medical advice. Okay, so long as one makes clear that one is writing from the patient's position, not as a doctor. This is true even if the medical advice from the non-doctor is good.(...)

In this lineage (I mean yours lineage, from Gudo Nishijima Roshi to you and so on), is there a possibility that a Layman could study "as a priest" and be granted Dharma-transmission (without turning to or willing to be one)? What do you think about people like, say, Charlotte Joko? I know Mahayana grants anyone the possibility to be a Bodhisattva and so (I think) in theory any student who achieves a good comprehension can help his fellows (no need for some "seal" of quality or something alike, I guess.) but in "reality", seems like that there are many Soto Sensei and Roshi that only sees the student as really "committed" to Zen-Buddhism if he/she have homeleaving shukke-tokudo.

What do you say? When is it a good moment for a student to "teach" or convey what he knows (even if just a little...) - say, to give introductory lessons on the basics of how to sit, etc? just curiosity. (sorry if the theme was already discussed elsewhere).

Eventually I sit with the local Sotoshu Zen Sangha here in my city which is led by a laymen "collegiate" linked to a famous temple here, founded by Ryohan Shingu Roshi, and eventually I hear some of them talking such things like "Zazen estimulates pineal gland", or about Kinhin that the foot which rises is doing a "step into future" and such things to beginners I feel it is not even close to the teachings I meet here and on all these good books of Zen that it makes me want to tell (sometimes to yell!) something, but at the same time I think maybe it could be seem as disrespectful...

Gassho.

[Jundo]

Hi Marcos,

I don't make a big distinction of "priest" or "lay person", and in the modern Zen priesthood with married priests ... and in Nishijima's Lineage of working people doubling as priests ... the distinction is very fine. So, what is the difference?

There are certain basic priestly skills and knowledge of our history, traditions and Teachings that any Soto Zen teacher must master, even non-monastic folks like us at Treeleaf. In my view, the "priest" is someone who is working to master all that, keep the tradition alive, and is in a role of service to others. To be a "priest" is to embody all that, even if someone has kids and drives a taxi the rest of the time. I personally would not authorize someone until I have worked with them many years, and am secure in my heart that they have profoundly penetrated into the way of Zazen, well familiar with, practicing and embodying our history and teachings, are capable of passing them on to others, that they are ethical persons who will serve the community and people who come to them for guidance, and who carry forth into the next generation the ways of our Lineage. I am not afraid (and I have in the past) asked novice priests to leave training if I believe they are failing to meet such standards.

I believe in the following, which we have adopted to this Sangha following standards shared among many Western Soto Zen Sangha ...

The period of formation that follows upon novice ordination (Shukke Tokudo) may continue for any number of years prior to possible (although never inevitable) Dharma Transmission, but truly continues as a lifelong endeavor that will sustain individuals dedicated to exemplifying the Dharma and the the Bodhisattva ideal. Completing formal priest training will mean that an individual has internalized the tradition, is capable of transmitting it, and vows to devote her or himself to a life of continuous practice and service.The individual’s dedication to the elements of priest training must enable him or her to maintain a regular, disciplined zazen practice, to instruct and guide others in their practice, to present and discuss the history and teachings of Buddhism and Soto Zen, to perform services and ceremonies in the Soto style as appropriate and required in the circumstance, and to actively nurture and serve both Sangha and the larger community and society.

In addition, priest training must make the individual aware of the highest ethical standards which must always be maintained by a member of the clergy, thereby assisting him or her in maintaining such standards in his or her personal life at all times. Training will also enable the individual to demonstrate personal qualities that inspire trust and confidence and encourage others to practice. Finally, training will enable the individual to clearly understand – and communicate to others – the relationship of Zen teaching and practice to everyday life.

I believe there is great value in having some recognized and respected teacher or institution (in modern Dharma Transmission, it is usually a combination of multiple teachers and institutions) approve someone else as a teacher. It is the same reason that you don't want to turn over your heart surgery to anyone with a white coat, but would like to see that the doctor graduated from medical school. It does not mean that the Harvard Graduate doctor will not also muck up your heart transplant, but there is a little level of confidence there that the guy knows what he is doing more than turning your heart surgery over to the butcher in the super market.

Now, there are many priests who preach and teach silly things, and a very small number (though grabbing the headlines) of priests who do unethical things. There are many licensed doctors with white coats and fancy degrees who are just butchers, and will do real harm. But there are far more butchers who are just butchers.

There are some folks who are not ordained or "authorized" by anyone who, practicing for decades, know more about this Practice than about anyone I know and are sagely "teachers" (official or not). There are some folks who, practicing a short time, are quick to offer their views and opinions ... sometimes worthwhile and sometimes crap. That is why I believe that anyone offering opinions in a blog should tell the reader his or her background, experience and "authorization" so that the reader can judge the source.

It is fine if someone with a year or so of practice and experience helps others with simple guidance on sitting and basic matters. Try to avoid to tell people things which are not in your confident expertise. You are dealing with people's lives and well being, and should not hand out recommendations lightly.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

PS - Is it okay to question what a teacher says if it sound foolish? I believe it is, and it is good to ask questions. Of course, at a certain point, one cannot be fighting and arguing with the teacher too much, and the best policy is to leave and find a better teacher. I am thinking of a new student who goes to a Karate school and fights, disagrees and argues with the teacher about the Karate taught there. Fine to ask questions, maybe disagree a bit, but if the disagreement is serious best to leave and find another Karate dojo that is better.

[voylinux]

Hmmm. I might make it clear that you are writing as a practitioner, and are not a priest or authorized teacher in a lineage. Why? It is just so that people reading your blog have some understanding of who you are and who is writing, your experience and where the opinions come from.

Some practitioners can write better and offer wiser advice than many priests ... but it is like someone who is not a licensed lawyer offering legal guidance (even if it is good guidance) or someone not a doctor offering medical advice. Okay, in my book, so long as one makes clear that one is writing from the patient's position, not as a doctor. This is true even if the medical advice from the non-doctor is good.

Again, the only reason is to be fair to readers about who you are and what basis your opinions have. They be fine and wise words no matter who writes them, or foolish words no matter who writes them.

Gassho, J

SatToday

Hi, Jundo:

Right. This is exactly what I mean. I want to avoid creating confusion and avoid that anyone can take my opinion as just a valid teaching.
I think I am very clear that I am just a student in all my "dharma posts", but maybe I can add some kind of notice message in all those posts so it is cristal clear that I write just from my studen experience. Right?

I just make those posts because I see it somehow as part of my Bodhisatva work and think I can somehow help to spread the dharma.

Again, thanks for the answer.

Gassho, Pablo.
Sat today.

[voylinux]

Hi Marcos,

I don't make a big distinction of "priest" or "lay person", and in the modern Zen priesthood with married priests ... and in Nishijima's Lineage of working people doubling as priests ... the distinction is very fine. So, what is the difference?

There are certain basic priestly skills and knowledge of our history, traditions and Teachings that any Soto Zen teacher must master, even non-monastic folks like us at Treeleaf. In my view, the "priest" is someone who is working to master all that, keep the tradition alive, and is in a role of service to others. To be a "priest" is to embody all that, even if someone has kids and drives a taxi the rest of the time. I personally would not authorize someone until I have worked with them many years, and am secure in my heart that they have profoundly penetrated into the way of Zazen, well familiar with, practicing and embodying our history and teachings, are capable of passing them on to others, that they are ethical persons who will serve the community and people who come to them for guidance, and who carry forth into the next generation the ways of our Lineage. I am not afraid (and I have in the past) asked novice priests to leave training if I believe they are failing to meet such standards.

I believe in the following, which we have adopted to this Sangha following standards shared among many Western Soto Zen Sangha ...



I believe there is great value in having some recognized and respected teacher or institution (in modern Dharma Transmission, it is usually a combination of multiple teachers and institutions) approve someone else as a teacher. It is the same reason that you don't want to turn over your heart surgery to anyone with a white coat, but would like to see that the doctor graduated from medical school. It does not mean that the Harvard Graduate doctor will not also muck up your heart transplant, but there is a little level of confidence there that the guy knows what he is doing more than turning your heart surgery over to the butcher in the super market.

Now, there are many priests who preach and teach silly things, and a very small number (though grabbing the headlines) of priests who do unethical things. There are many licensed doctors with white coats and fancy degrees who are just butchers, and will do real harm. But there are far more butchers who are just butchers.

There are some folks who are not ordained or "authorized" by anyone who, practicing for decades, know more about this Practice than about anyone I know and are sagely "teachers" (official or not). There are some folks who, practicing a short time, are quick to offer their views and opinions ... sometimes worthwhile and sometimes crap. That is why I believe that anyone offering opinions in a blog should tell the reader his or her background, experience and "authorization" so that the reader can judge the source.

It is fine if someone with a year or so of practice and experience helps others with simple guidance on sitting and basic matters. Try to avoid to tell people things which are not in your confident expertise. You are dealing with people's lives and well being, and should not hand out recommendations lightly.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

PS - Is it okay to question what a teacher says if it sound foolish? I believe it is, and it is good to ask questions. Of course, at a certain point, one cannot be fighting and arguing with the teacher too much, and the best policy is to leave and find a better teacher. I am thinking of a new student who goes to a Karate school and fights, disagrees and argues with the teacher about the Karate taught there. Fine to ask questions, maybe disagree a bit, but if the disagreement is serious best to leave and find another Karate dojo that is better.

I totally agree with Jundo here.
I have seen students with really a lot of years of practice give horrible advices to people and not making clear enough where their "teaching" came from and not making clear enough what their level of "authorization" really is.

This is why I have been thinking a lot about this and because I feel this as my Sangha now, this is why it is so important for me to ask this question here so Jundo can give his opinion and advice on the matter. I would for sure prefer not to write or share about the dharma than thinking I can hurt by doing it.

For me, this is a very serious matter. As Jundo says, your are dealing with people's well being.

[Kyonin]

Hi Pablo,

I think Jundo is right. After many years of writing in the blog, magazines and books I realize people tend to believe everything they read online without researching any further. Making it clear somewhere in your blog that you are a lay practitioner will take off of you responsibility for what people want to understand.

Also just write, learn and have fun. Readers appreciate an honest and personal blog rather than an institutional one. In time you'll get more people interested and this will give you the next idea where to go next.

But that's just my opinion

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Jundo]

Also just write, learn and have fun. Readers appreciate an honest and personal blog rather than an institutional one. In time you'll get more people interested and this will give you the next idea where to go next.

Yes, yes, yes! Although I think it good to let readers know one's background and where they are coming from, after that write, create, express, enjoy!

I don't want what I said dissuade anyone from that!

Y, si quiere, puede informar nuestro communidad de su blog. Solo si su quiere. (Perdon, mi espanol ahora es muy horible.)

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Jishin]

Writing and teaching about zen?

Hi,

I believe in specialization. Find something that you like, do it well and lots of it. Let other people do what you don't do so well. Society works better like this. Whatever your job is, just do it. It is fun to talk Zen with people you know but do you really want to teach the stuff? What is it anyway?

I think lots of practitioners have romantic ideas about teaching. But think about it. People may actually listen to what you have to say and act on your teaching/advice. Lots of Zen is based upon psychology. In some regards I view teaching as proving counseling services as a clergyman - for free. There can be bad outcomes if you screw it up. Don't you like to sleep at night without worrying about how the stuff you write or say may affect others in the name of the Dharma?

What part do you want to teach? The scriptures/historical stuff? Why mess with this. It's just words. Let the people with a gift for this stuff like Jundo do his thing.

Sitting? Sit down, shut up and breathe.

Koan introspection? Why? If you don't pick up a Koan it's not yours. Don't make Koans.

Counseling to help others - decrease suffering - Bhoddhisattva stuff? Get a counseling degree, some malpractice insurance and make some money. Support yourself and your family. If there is any money leftover give it to Treeleaf or your favorite good cause.

Let the pros do their thing and stay out of it.

Just my two cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jinyo]

Hello Pablo,

I think its fine to write a blog from your personal take and its heartening that you feel enthusiastic about sharing the dharma - particularly as you feel
there is a need for more of this in your first language (Spanish?).

You raise an important question though and I think it's interesting that some practitioners are content to quietly practice and others feel a strong drive
to take a more active role. I like the way you are asking yourself questions concerning this because I feel we need to investigate our motives/drives a lot
concerning all of this.

There is a part of me that would love to 'teach' - but the more I learn and experience the less able I feel. There is just 'something' essential that can't be conveyed
in words and there are already so many wonderful books full of words that have taken a stab at expressing the ineffable I can't imagine that I could ever add
adequately to this. Organising a sitting group would be a good way to go but I have too many health problems to make a regular commitment to that and don't
feel I have the correct level of experience because I can only manage short sits.

I think in a way I partly agree with Jishin and also to add the fundamental way to spread the dharma seems to be how we live our lives - that speaks for a thousand words.

But anyway - enjoy and good luck with your blog.

Gassho,

Willow/Jinyo

sat today

[voylinux]

Hi Pablo,

I think Jundo is right. After many years of writing in the blog, magazines and books I realize people tend to believe everything they read online without researching any further. Making it clear somewhere in your blog that you are a lay practitioner will take off of you responsibility for what people want to understand.

Also just write, learn and have fun. Readers appreciate an honest and personal blog rather than an institutional one. In time you'll get more people interested and this will give you the next idea where to go next.

But that's just my opinion

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

Thank you, Kyonin. Nice advice as usually.
I will follow it.

SatToday.

[voylinux]

Yes, yes, yes! Although I think it good to let readers know one's background and where they are coming from, after that write, create, express, enjoy!

I don't want what I said dissuade anyone from that!

Y, si quiere, puede informar nuestro communidad de su blog. Solo si su quiere. (Perdon, mi espanol ahora es muy horible.)

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

Thanks for the encouragement, Jundo.
And hey! Tu español es muy bueno.

[voylinux]

Hi,

I believe in specialization. Find something that you like, do it well and lots of it. Let other people do what you don't do so well. Society works better like this. Whatever your job is, just do it. It is fun to talk Zen with people you know but do you really want to teach the stuff? What is it anyway?

I think lots of practitioners have romantic ideas about teaching. But think about it. People may actually listen to what you have to say and act on your teaching/advice. Lots of Zen is based upon psychology. In some regards I view teaching as proving counseling services as a clergyman - for free. There can be bad outcomes if you screw it up. Don't you like to sleep at night without worrying about how the stuff you write or say may affect others in the name of the Dharma?

What part do you want to teach? The scriptures/historical stuff? Why mess with this. It's just words. Let the people with a gift for this stuff like Jundo do his thing.

Sitting? Sit down, shut up and breathe.

Koan introspection? Why? If you don't pick up a Koan it's not yours. Don't make Koans.

Counseling to help others - decrease suffering - Bhoddhisattva stuff? Get a counseling degree, some malpractice insurance and make some money. Support yourself and your family. If there is any money leftover give it to Treeleaf or your favorite good cause.

Let the pros do their thing and stay out of it.

Just my two cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Hi Jishin.

I understand what you say but I don't go so far. Not so big expectations.
I think more about just writting, sharing and trying to inspire and whenever possible help someone. Just step by step, just small things in a humble blog.

I think lots of practitioners have romantic ideas about teaching

I know, I have seen it many times for many years, but I am not thinking about that, belive me.

Not pretending to look like something I am not at all. Just making clear I share my experience as a student and practicioner. I think not only pro's people teachings are important, many times it is important also to read "more amateur" people's experiences. Those are very different but complementary things (as I see it).

Thank you for sharing your point of view.

Gasho. Sat Today.

[voylinux]

Hello Pablo,

I think its fine to write a blog from your personal take and its heartening that you feel enthusiastic about sharing the dharma - particularly as you feel
there is a need for more of this in your first language (Spanish?).

You raise an important question though and I think it's interesting that some practitioners are content to quietly practice and others feel a strong drive
to take a more active role. I like the way you are asking yourself questions concerning this because I feel we need to investigate our motives/drives a lot
concerning all of this.

There is a part of me that would love to 'teach' - but the more I learn and experience the less able I feel. There is just 'something' essential that can't be conveyed
in words and there are already so many wonderful books full of words that have taken a stab at expressing the ineffable I can't imagine that I could ever add
adequately to this. Organising a sitting group would be a good way to go but I have too many health problems to make a regular commitment to that and don't
feel I have the correct level of experience because I can only manage short sits.

I think in a way I partly agree with Jishin and also to add the fundamental way to spread the dharma seems to be how we live our lives - that speaks for a thousand words.

But anyway - enjoy and good luck with your blog.

Gassho,

Willow/Jinyo

sat today

Hi, Willow.

Maybe when I used "teaching", that was not the correct word beacause I am not a teacher.

It also happends to me, as you say, that the more I practice (not sure if learn) the more I think if it is a good idea, but I feel it is important. As I say it is important to separate teachers "teachings" from student's experiences. Academic books are great, nice dharma talks are so helpful, sutras ... (you got the idea). But those are things wich play a different role.

For example, there is a difference from reading books about amy things and learn from them, go to conferences or whatever, but zen practice is more a life long process it is very encouraging and helpful (at least for me) to know about the ideas and experiences of people who are going through a similar situation.

About local meditation groups, I have worked really hard in a local sangha for nine years, but because of my circunstances it is not posible for me now to help orgaizing sitting groups too.

About spred the dharma with how live ... that is for sure, I try everyday to live a correct life, but I don't think this and sharing experience are not exclusive things one to each other. Both are skillful means as I see them.

Also, if it sounds in your heart ... maybe is the best way for you (as soon as you are not making bad with it, sure).

Thank you.

Sat today.