"Mu sho tok ko"

[Kyosei]

Hi friends,

I was just doing Zazen a few minutes ago.

Tonight some words from the "Heart Sutra" in japanese (which I often recite at the end of Zazen periods, as I was teached to do where I started my practice... and so at the local Sangha where I do practice sometimes...) came into my mind during Zazen with a little insistence. So at the end of my practice I sang the Heart Sutra and the Daihi Shin Dharani (as I "felt" to do so, too).

Those words were "Mu sho tok ko". Of course I already did read the Heart Sutra (in transliterated japanese and translated versions in english and portuguese), though I don't know what this exact words mean.

So what does it means?

Why these words came to the "surface" just tonight?

How can I take this kind of thoughts when it arises...? Should I look further or is it meant to be just "dropped", too?

I know the practice is to drop body/mind and to just sit, but when things like that occurs I tend to rationalize and look for a reason...

Gassho.

[Jundo]

Hi Marcos,

Nothing wrong ever with reciting the Heart Sutra ... except perhaps during Zazen (for Zazen is itself the embodiment of Heart Sutra).

Also, the words and Teachings of the Heart Sutra have meaning, so good to study and understand the meaning. Of course, there is also a time to place all study aside and, throwing self into the chant, simply chant free of pondering.

The phrase from the Heart Sutra "mu sho tok ko" means "nothing to attain." Such is a fundamental Teaching of our Way.

Tanahashi Sensei, in his book on the Heart Sutra, provides detail on the language ...

Next, the Heart Sutra discusses the illusion of attainment in meditation practice.

(21) FREE OF ATTAINMENT
...
CA: 以無所得故
[CH]: yi wu suo de gu
...
Jtl: i mu shotok ko,
...
ES: because there is no attainment.
EC: Therefore, O Sariputra, it is because of his non-attainmentness
ETH: Being free of attainment

... The Chinese yi (以) means “with,” “by,” “because,” or “because of.” Gu (故), which has appeared previously, means “reason” or “because.” The combination of these similar words is in a way redundant, but it creates a strong sound. Suo (所) means “place” but also makes the following verb passive. De (得) means “attain” or “acquire.” So suode means “what is attained.” This line in Chinese can be interpreted as: “Because nothing is attained” or “Because there is nothing is attained” or “Because there is nothing to be attained.” The Japanese shotokko is a phonetic form of shotoku (所得) followed by ko (故)
https://www.amazon.com/Heart-Sutra-C.../dp/161180096X

In some translations, this is united with the caution "no attainment and no non-attainment". One "gains non-gaining", which is a tremendous gain in Emptiness! Saying "there is nothing to attain" does -not- mean that we don't have a lot of work to do to "non-attain" it!

This is pretty much what we point everywhere around here ... for example ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14444-BOOK-OF-EQUANIMITY-Case-51

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14541-BOOK-OF-EQUANIMITY-Case-57&p=180669#post180669

Gassho, J

SatToday Mushotoku (an alternative spelling)

(By the way, I don't particularly recommend the above Tanahashi Sensei book to people new to Heart Sutra. It is a bit of a mess. The Red Pine Version is my recommendation for people interested in the history and meaning)

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=bQ7P7buVH74C&dq=red+pine+heart+sutra&source=gbs_navlinks_s

[Eishuu]

Thank you both for this interesting thread. Is the Daihi Shin Dharani something that is practised around here? I haven't heard of it before. I'd be interested to know more about it.

I am currently reading 'Infinite Circle' by Bernie Glassman, on the Heart Sutra and finding it really helpful. I didn't see it on the book list - is it a book you know of or would recommend Jundo?

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

[Jundo]

Hi Lucy,

I do not know the book "Infinite Circle". I am a big fan of Glassman Roshi's social action. He is also a member of Sambokyodan, in the Lineage of Maezumi Roshi, that I have been discussing in our book club. So, don't be surprised if the book is tinged by that flavor of Zen at places ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14541-BOOK-OF-EQUANIMITY-Case-57&p=180605&viewfull=1#post180605

As to the "Daihi Shin Dharani" ... it is an old and very traditional part of many Zen rituals, but I tend to avoid all Dharani here. Why? Although people bend over backwards to find some modern interpretation and value in them, they are basically magic spells meant to work incantations. An explanation from the AZI (Deshimaru Lineage) sums it up ...

Dharanis are not normally translated as they really have no meaning other than as mantras or ‘spells’ – very much in the same way the ‘English’ word “abracadabra” has no meaning. Often the syllables are thought to make an auspicious sound, or have an esoteric or symbolic meaning.
http://www.izauk.org/multimedia-arch...i-shin-darani/

They are magical sounds, in which the sound is said to work the magic ... and in most cases, even the original meanings of the words have been completely lost. Another explanation of "Dharani" from the Soto-shu's own webpage ...

S. dhāraī, literally, "that which supports." A magical spell, chanted either to make something happen (e.g. open the throats of hungry ghosts to enable them to consume an offering of food) or to produce merit for dedication. Dharanis consist of strings of sounds that are deemed sacred and powerful, although they often have little or no discernible semantic value. Proper pronunciation of the sounds is deemed necessary for them to be effective. The Chinese characters with which dharanis are written were all selected by the original translators of Indian Buddhist texts into classical Chinese for their phonetic values (not their meanings) as a device to transliterate (not translate) spells that were originally written and/or chanted in Indic languages. Japanese liturgical handbooks always include a pronunciation guide, written in the kana syllabary, that runs alongside the Chinese characters.
Attempts have been made in the past to translate dharanis into English. Because dharanis have no meaning in the classical Chinese in which they are written, however, any such attempt must begin by reconstructing a text in the original Indic language (usually presumed to be Sanskrit) and then proceed to translate that hypothetical text into English. It is true that certain combinations of Chinese characters in dharanis, even when chanted by Japanese today, are recognizable as Sanskrit words. From the standpoint of critical scholarship, however, the reconstruction of a complete, ostensibly original text is a highly dubious process, for there is no way of knowing for sure which Indic or Central Asian language served as the starting point for any given Chinese transliteration, and there is no reason to assume that even the original Indic version had a clear enough syntax or meaning to support translation. That, and the fact that Buddhists in East Asia have never attempted to translate dharanis, has persuaded the board of editors of the Soto Zen Text Project to stick with the tradition of transliterating them (i.e. representing the Japanese kana in Roman letters). Some Zen practitioners in the West believe that dharanis should at least be restored to their "original" Sanskrit pronunciations, but in most cases that is not a critically viable option.
http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/...ml?key=dharani

I like my Buddhist Practice to be rather free of the hocus and the pocus.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Kyosei]

Jundo, thanks for the answer.

Maybe I did not explain me well...

I guess I know (and it was told many times here) that it is not appropriate to do Shikantaza focusing on anything. But at times, even focusing nothing, here comes a thought, a feeling, an insight...

My doubt was: when a thought of (even a practice-related) thing appears during Zazen (randomly I guess), should I treat it like if it was any kind of thought, that is, to drop it and come back to the "vastness", to the "open"?

Or does it means anything that should be studied, looked for (after the practice)? Should I pay attention (or register to search after practice) to these thoughts, insights or alike?

A Roshi here in Brazil sometime told me in Dokusan that "Zazen would teach me how to do Zazen". And sometimes I think: is that "elements" that arise from times to times "teaching" me something? or are they just mind babbling?

Gassho.

[Jundo]

Hi Marcos,

An interesting question.

Generally, in Shikantaza Zazen, one does not grab on to or dance with any thought which comes into mind. If one finds oneself caught or following thoughts, one lets them go ... returns to the breath or posture or open awareness.

But it is true that sometimes poignant or weighty thoughts will come during Zazen, and then it is not like ordinary thinking. It is as if the thoughts become transparent, simple and clear. It is as if thought and clarity are one, what I believe Master Dogen meant by "thinking non thinking." However, even then we do not dance with the thoughts or stir them up, and we let them go without becoming tangled in the thought or indulging in chains of one-after-the-next thoughts.

Let me try to give an actual example:

If I were engaging in normal, ordinary thinking about my mother's death, I might consider all manner of things ranging from the "meaning of death" to "how much I miss her" to "the cost and artificiality of funerals" to memories from my childhood to my mother's pancakes to all manner of emotions to the next thing to the next thing etc. etc.

In Zazen, just sitting, suddenly a thought of my mother's death may come to mind. I do not pursue it or grab on, I do not get tangled, one does not dance from one thought to the next. It is just a thought that comes to mind. However, sometimes, the transparent light of wisdom, simplicity and clarity of Zazen will be present even as the thought is present, shining through. The thought is as if simplified and illuminated. It is not experienced as in normal thinking, but instead through the lens of Wisdom and Compassion. Death may not be perceived now in the ordinary way. Even death is now clear and simple and dreamlike and light.

Even so ... one do not grab on. one lets it go.

Later, off the cushion, when things arise to ponder, perhaps we can learn to be less caught in thought tangles, and to see with that "clear and simple light" even off the cushion more.

Does that help?

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Eishuu]

Thanks for the clarification Jundo.

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

[Kyosei]

(...) It is as if the thoughts become transparent, simple and clear. It is as if thought and clarity are one, what I believe Master Dogen meant by "thinking non thinking." However, even then we do not dance with the thoughts or stir them up, and we let them go without becoming tangled in the thought or indulging in chains of one-after-the-next thoughts.
(...)
However, sometimes, the transparent light of wisdom, simplicity and clarity of Zazen will be present even as the thought is present, shining through. The thought is as if simplified and illuminated.

Jundo, can you please tell me something more on this "thinking non thinking"? Is it a glimpse of "prajna"?
If it is not "normal thinking" where does it come from (as there is no mental object in which the mind could fixate, thus achieving perception)?

(...)It is not experienced as in normal thinking, but instead through the lens of Wisdom and Compassion.(...)

Where are these "lens"?

Later, off the cushion, when things arise to ponder, perhaps we can learn to be less caught in thought tangles, and to see with that "clear and simple light" even off the cushion more.

How can we achieve this state permanently?

Does that help?

Always, teacher. Gassho.

[Jundo]

Hi Marcos,

I believe it is Prajna wisdom. I don't much think about or care where it comes from or what "lens." One might say it does not "come from" anywhere, because an aspect of the piercing of the subject/object division inherent in "Prajna" means that words like "come from" or "go to" don't quite apply. It is just present and clear like the air to breathe.

Prajna might be said to be beyond all time and impermanence, but we live in a world of time and impermanence. I don't believe the old legends about folks attaining such things "permanently," nor do I think it would be good and healthy for human beings to live that way. I don't believe in permanent Buddhas who left all their humanity behind, and think that most of the hype and legends created about our dead ancestors tended to paint extreme images. (Anyway, who wants to realize the "emptiness of all phenomena" every waking moment. Better to just live life with ordinary human thoughts and emotions most of the time, and most of the time human thoughts and emotions don't create a serious problem, and make this life rich). However, it is a wonderful insight to be able to touch and activate "Buddha Eye" when one wants, and this is an ability we develop in Zazen.

Gassho, Jundo

[Kyosei]

Thank you, teacher.

A bow.

Gassho.

[Kyonin]

Thank you for this thread.

I also have thought of dharani and even though I like them a lot, I rarely chant them. Maybe I do just because it feels nice

Sometimes I also chant mantras because they are fun and since they are repetitive allow me to focus on work. Spotify has a lot of songs with all kind of mantras from a lot of different faiths.

But like Jundo said, I try to keep my practice as real as can be.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday