about thoughts

[ranitadechocolate27]

Hi everyone,

My name is Adri and I am new to the Treeleaf. I've been reading a lot in the forum lately and have to say I am really happy that I've found it.

I have a question about Zazen, I've been searching throughly in the forum about it but maybe I am a bit confused. I hope I am posting in the correct area if not please let me know.

I know that when we meditate thoughts and feelings arise and I know that we have to let them go, not invite them to drink tea, or like in the second video of the talks for newcomers just let the thoughts blow away. The thing that I have noticed when I try to go back to sitting is that instead of just breathing deeply and sit or like a lovable mother calling softly to her child to come back to her, I instead scream to my thoughts to go back. Very angrily I tell them "HEY YOU! THERE! YOU ARE A THOUGHT! GO BACK TO SIT! NOW!" and sometimes when I have a hint of a thought is again like "HEY! WHAT DID I TOLD YOU TO DO!?? GO BACK AND SIT!"

I have had this feeling since I started meditating by myself a few months ago and I thought that maybe it is kind of the way I "deal" (not sure if it is the correct word for this) with the arising thoughts and I was wondering if there is another way to gently disperce the thoughts. I am afraid that treating thoughts like that is very mean and that I am punishing myself for just letting the nature of the thoughts to do what it normally does.

Many times I've read to go back to the breathing but in a way I just can help myself to scream to the thoughts to go back to sitting.

Is this a way to just deal with the thoughts? or am I being to strict with myself? or maybe I have to learn how to be gentle with myself?

Anyways I wish everyone a beautiful day/afternoon/eveyning.



Adri

Sat today

[Kyonin]

Hi Adri,

Welcome to Treeleaf!

I may be totally wrong on what I am about to say, but it could help.

When we begin to sit it's always confusing to understand that thought can be let go and that they just float. It's a rather complex thing to do because we are very used to believe our thoughts are reality. Far from it.

So it's normal to fight against thoughts and even order them to float away now! But this is resistance, a form of aversion. By doing this you are giving thoughts value over you, thus they will never leave since you are already clinging to them.

What I do when I sit zazen and thoughts are too fast and furious, is to just acknowledge I AM the one thinking. Instead of shouting orders to them, I just "say" a calm "thinking".

This helps me understand I am having a thought, that this thought is not me.

A memory from schooldays pops up, "thinking"

A grocery list comes, "thinking"

A fantasy comes up, "thinking"

With practice it will get easier.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[TyZa]

This helps me understand I am having a thought, that this thought is not me.

I agree completely with Kyonin. I am very novice at taking Zen seriously so please take this with a massive grain of salt. Along with showing compassion to others we need to also show compassion to ourselves and that includes our thoughts (not that those "thoughts" are "us" ). Maybe try to show compassion to these thoughts and know they are there and just observe them without judgment. Also, be compassionate to yourself and try not to get frustrated at things that are going to happen no matter what.

If I've confused you please ignore everything I said lol.

Gassho,
Tyler

SatToday

[Jishin]

Hi Adri,

You are perfect as you are. Nothing to add or take away. Just don't forget to breathe when you sit.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Eishuu]

Hi there,
It sounds like maybe you are trying to get rid of the thoughts? You ask how you can disperse them. I am very new to Zen but I have found from my own practice that feeling aversion to thoughts and trying to stop or control them doesn't work. Maybe just trying relaxing around the thoughts and just noticing them and maybe try and get comfortable with the mind thinking - that's what it does. And if you get angry with the thoughts just notice that too. If the thoughts come up, just don't feed them...they often go on their own then.

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

[Toun]

Hello Adri,

Thoughts will come and go and they also have an impermanent nature. Do not grasp or struggle with these thoughts along with any emotions they may bring along. Recognize them for what they are and let tthem run their course. Thank you for your practice and do not let these things discourage you.

As Jishin mentioned "You are perfect as you are".

Best wishes
Gassho
Mike

Sat2day

[Jakuden]

Thoughts are just the scenery passing by while sitting on your zafu.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mp]

Thoughts are just the scenery passing by while sitting on your zafu.

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jundo]

Lovely advice from the folks here.

Thoughts just come and go. Sometimes there are spaces between thoughts. Sometimes there are thoughts. Just don't dance with 'em. Don't tangle with em. Pay 'em no nevermind.

I have offered a talk (now long gone, perhaps need to make a new one) that was about this, in which I had a bowl of water all stirred up and turbid. That represented the mind filled with storming thoughts and emotions. If I tried to pat the water still and calm with my hand, however, that would just stir up the water more. In fact, the best way to calm the water was just to put it down ... let the thoughts and emotions go and settle of their own accord. This is Shikantaza.



Instead of "doing" something about the thoughts, the way to allow the water to settle is not to "do" anything to the water, or to take any action. It is merely to stop, rest, and let the water settle and clear on its own.

If you really really cannot get your mind to settle, and it remains stormy to the point of true distraction and discomfort, try following or counting your breaths for a time until the mind settles and clears.

However, Shikantaza does not stop with only "stilling" like that, and is not limited to "stilling" that requires stillness. True Big "S" "Stilling" is not really a matter of making the mind "still" (which is a good thing, because this busy world will never be totally still, silent and quiet to our satisfaction, and our true peace would not be very profound if we demanded that the world had to be so for us to feel peaceful! Better to be satisfied and at peace with how the world is rather than demanding that the world be peaceful to our satisfaction!)

Thus, there is a more ultimate realization ... namely that the water, whether still or stirring, quiet or rolling with ripples and waves ... is ultimately Still. True "Stillness" is not merely a matter of stilling the mind ... but of finding the Stillness which is all stillness or movement, the Silence which sings both quiet and noise. If one believes that "stillness" is found only in a stilled and silenced mind, it is a bit like saying that the only "water" in the jar is still water, not flowing water in the sea. Find the "peace and quiet" that exists in the middle of a battlefield.

To realize the Stillness that is always here, in all corners of this sometimes still and sometimes tumultuous world, is Shikantaza.

Gassho, J

SatToday

PS - I am reminded of this scene of a Buddhist who needs "quiet" to feel Quiet. Better to know the Big Q Quiet that is not dependent on quiet or noise ...

Oh, one of the things that really disturbs me is how they portray monks in movies!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKmVkQLieDQ

[ranitadechocolate27]

Thank you very much everyone for the advice. It got me to be aware of how I meditate. Thank you very much.

Adri

Sat today

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[Joyo]

Thoughts are just the scenery passing by while sitting on your zafu.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good one =)

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Oheso]

To realize the Stillness that is always here, in all corners of this sometimes still and sometimes tumultuous world, is Shikantaza.

I find it interesting that this feels so similar to Hakuin's idea of meditation in the midst of activity, and Hakuin no proponent of shikantaza.

not even 2¢ worth, gassho, O

who today sat

[Byokan]

True "Stillness" is not merely a matter of stilling the mind ... but of finding the Stillness which is all stillness or movement, the Silence which sings both quiet and noise.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat today

[Seishin]

Stumbled across this thread whilst searching out some info on Zafus and it seems to cover where I've been/not been these last couple of months of sitting. What troubles me is that I'm not thinking about day to day things when I sit, life, money, health, whether we'll be forced to repatriate to the UK if my wife can't get health cover in France for her heart condition, when the UK leaves the EU because of the selfish Brexit vote. Not these "important" things but all about sitting, breathing, posture and a multitude of clouds blown from the Newcomer videos and Basics series. I guess this is pretty common for a relative newbie and from what has been said here, is just as it is or will become less of an issue for me in time. I must admit I seem to be able to let go or imagine that I am and not hanging onto these thoughts, so I guess that's a good thing. How nice it would be to just find that door into my subconscious and leave the self on the door mat ! But as I said in another thread I'll sit expecting nothing, just sitting.

[Jishin]

Hi Seishin-Do,

No attaining with nothing to attain is a nice goalless goal while sitting in my case.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_