I'm not very good at zazen

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40363

    #46
    Originally posted by davidh
    Thank you, I had a sucky zazen today and reading this thread made me feel a whole lot better

    Something to learn here perhaps about 'radical acceptance' as Marsha Linehan calls it. Maybe if I can learn to accept how much I suck at zazen, then I can learn to accept other aspects of life as well

    Gassho

    sat today

    David
    Ah, a Koan for you: What transcends both human "sucky" and "not sucky"?

    Zazen is not a matter of never feeling "sucky." Rather, it is a Big NS "Not Sucky" which is so "Not Sucky" that sometimes it feels human "not sucky" but sometimes it feels human really "sucky."

    Thus, in Zazen, we sit as what is, dropping judgment ... whereby sucky times are just sucky, not sucky times are not sucky, thus to find the Big "Not Sucky" that is embodied in both sucky and not sucky and everything else in the world.

    A funny thing about the word "sucky" is that it sounds a little like "Dukkha" and "Sukkha." The Buddha set out on his search to find an answer for "Dukkha" ....

    No one English word captures the full depth and range of the Pali term, Dukkha. It is sometimes rendered as “suffering,” as in “life is suffering.” But perhaps it’s better expressed as “dissatisfaction,” “anxiety,” “disappointment,” “unease at perfection,” or “frustration” — terms that wonderfully convey a subtlety of meaning.

    In a nutshell, your “self” wishes this world to be X, yet this world is not X. The mental state that may result to the “self” from this disparity is Dukkha.
    .
    Shakyamuni Buddha gave many examples: sickness (when we do not wish to be sick), old age (when we long for youth), death (if we cling to life), loss of a loved one (as we cannot let go), violated expectations, the failure of happy moments to last (though we wish them to last). Even joyous moments — such as happiness and good news, treasure or pleasant times — can be a source of suffering if we cling to them, if we are attached to those things.

    In ancient stories, Dukkha is often compared to a chariot’s or potter’s wheel that will not turn smoothly as it revolves. The opposite, Sukkha, is a wheel that spins smoothly and noiselessly, without resistance as it goes.

    Fortunately, Shakyamuni Buddha also provided the Dukkha cure. ... Our Practice closes the gap; not the least separation.

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...y-Dooby-Dukkha
    Time once again for me to point folks to some advice on "sucky" and "not sucky" Zazen ... Please have a look:

    Right Zazen and Wrong Zazen
    Hi, I BELIEVE THE FOLLOWING TO BE SO VITAL, FOR NEW AND OLD, THAT I AM GOING TO MAKE A SPECIAL REPOST. It is the "there is good Zazen, and bad Zazen ... but never any bad Zazen" post ... _________________________________________________ Hey All, I would like to repost something that I think is important to


    In a nutshell, by transcending constant human judgments of "right vs. wrong" "good v. bad" we may discover "Good Zazen" which feels right. But by constantly being judgmental and searching for "good Zazen", we are likely to miss the mark. This makes Shikantaza very different from many forms of meditation which seek a good experience that feels good.

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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    • Jakuden
      Member
      • Jun 2015
      • 6141

      #47
      Thanks for the reminder Jundo!

      Although some of the time I still have to procrastinate my way to the cushion, other times I get all anticipatory about how wonderful it will be, and prepare everything just so, and then... instead of being all perfect, there's a wicked itch on my face, my feet get cold, the dog is whining insistently outside the door, and/or I keep catching my mind off down some rabbit hole of thoughts. The problem is not with the Zazen itself, but with my anticipating it to be something other than what it is.

      Gassho,
      Jakuden
      SatToday/LAH

      Comment

      • davidh
        Member
        • Aug 2017
        • 10

        #48
        Jundo,

        Thanks for the great reply

        Gassho

        David

        sat today

        Comment

        • Seishin
          Member
          • Aug 2016
          • 1522

          #49
          Thank you Jundo for reiterating this point, as I still find myself critiquing mid sit.

          Shingen the Okumura link seems to have disappeared from your post. Is this just impermanence or some other work at play ?

          SIZT / L


          Seishin

          Sei - Meticulous
          Shin - Heart

          Comment

          • Jundo
            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
            • Apr 2006
            • 40363

            #50
            Originally posted by Shingen
            Here is a lovely talk by Shohaku Okumura on Zazen is good for nothing ... =)



            Gassho
            Shingen

            SatToday/LAH
            The video seems to be still there, and it shines. I hope everyone in the Sangha will listen to it, and the accompanying video Talks by Okumura Roshi if possible.


            Such a short, clear, logical (in a good way) explanation of some of the basic counter-intuitively wise aspects of this Way.

            Nine Bows, J

            SatTodayLAH
            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

            Comment

            • Meitou
              Member
              • Feb 2017
              • 1656

              #51
              Okumura Roshi makes it all sound so easy to understand - I loved his explanation of Total Function, it's such a difficult concept, but I understood what he was saying without a struggle. Are the other talks on that same channel?
              Gassho
              Frankie

              satwithyoualltoday/lah
              命 Mei - life
              島 Tou - island

              Comment

              • Mp

                #52
                Originally posted by Frankie
                Okumura Roshi makes it all sound so easy to understand - I loved his explanation of Total Function, it's such a difficult concept, but I felt what he was saying without a struggle. Are the other talks on that same channel?
                Gassho
                Frankie

                satwithyoualltoday/lah
                Yes Frankie, head over here and you will see the other talks. =)

                The curriculum of Interior Mythos Journeys is a quest to articulate and explore contemporary mythic language – a communication context of depth that is in…


                Gassho
                Shingen

                SatToday/LAH

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                • Meitou
                  Member
                  • Feb 2017
                  • 1656

                  #53
                  Thank you Shingen!

                  Gassho
                  Frankie

                  satwithyoualltoday/lah
                  命 Mei - life
                  島 Tou - island

                  Comment

                  • Seishin
                    Member
                    • Aug 2016
                    • 1522

                    #54
                    Originally posted by Shingen
                    Yes Frankie, head over here and you will see the other talks. =)

                    The curriculum of Interior Mythos Journeys is a quest to articulate and explore contemporary mythic language – a communication context of depth that is in…


                    Gassho
                    Shingen

                    SatToday/LAH
                    Shingen

                    Thanks for posting this link. I could have sworn your previous post had a link to the video but can't see it now, perhaps I imagined it

                    STD


                    Seishin

                    Sei - Meticulous
                    Shin - Heart

                    Comment

                    • Eishuu

                      #55
                      Lovely, thanks for the links. I really enjoyed the last Okumura Roshi talk I watched.

                      Gassho
                      Lucy
                      ST/LAH

                      Comment

                      • Joyo

                        #56
                        Jundo and Shingen, thanks for the video by Okumura Roshi. I too really enjoyed his talk.

                        Gassho,
                        Joyo
                        sat today/lah

                        Comment

                        • Doshin
                          Member
                          • May 2015
                          • 2641

                          #57


                          Doshin
                          st/lah

                          Comment

                          • Hutch
                            Member
                            • Aug 2017
                            • 6

                            #58
                            Originally posted by Greggorious
                            One of the reasons I chose to sign up to this site is that I can get instructions on Zazen, do it in my own time and for however long I want. There is a soto zen group that is near me that I go to from time to time, but I just can't sit from an hour at a time, let alone do a sesshin. My anxiety issues are so bad that if I sit for longer than 20 minutes I start crying out in pain. 10 mins a day for me usually. Maybe if my anxiety disorder gets better then I'll do more. I've just started 12 step recovery too so hopefully that should help.
                            I suck at zazen, but I also suck at Anapanasati and vipassana, but at least with zazen I don't have to worry about obtaining anything.
                            Two things:

                            One of the first things that the medical researchers found out about meditation is that it really reduces anxiety. Keep doing those 10 minutes, or whatever you can, because you are doing exactly the right thing for yourself. I, too, have been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, so I've been there. And I couldn't sit for long at first, either.

                            Second, there is a "new-ish" self-help recovery group... www.refugerecovery.org Combines Buddhist wisdom with self-help, and each meeting includes a guided meditation. My friends and I just started one where I live, and when I spoke to the people who ship out the start-up kits, they said they are averaging a request a day. Coming soon to a place near you... Or maybe you'll start one yourself. Your public library should be able to get you the text: "Refuge Recovery" by Noah Levine.

                            Peace be with you,

                            Hutch
                            Sat today

                            Comment

                            • Zenmei
                              Member
                              • Jul 2016
                              • 270

                              #59
                              Originally posted by Hutch
                              Two things:

                              One of the first things that the medical researchers found out about meditation is that it really reduces anxiety. Keep doing those 10 minutes, or whatever you can, because you are doing exactly the right thing for yourself. I, too, have been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, so I've been there. And I couldn't sit for long at first, either.

                              Second, there is a "new-ish" self-help recovery group... www.refugerecovery.org Combines Buddhist wisdom with self-help, and each meeting includes a guided meditation. My friends and I just started one where I live, and when I spoke to the people who ship out the start-up kits, they said they are averaging a request a day. Coming soon to a place near you... Or maybe you'll start one yourself. Your public library should be able to get you the text: "Refuge Recovery" by Noah Levine.

                              Peace be with you,

                              Hutch
                              Sat today
                              I'll second the Refuge recommendation. I've been leading a group for close to 2 years now. If you like 12 step, you can do both, if 12-step doesn't feel right it's a wonderful alternative. If there's not a group near you, it's really easy to start one, everything you need is in the book.

                              Gassho, Zenmei (sat)

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