Changing the words to the Heart Sutra? Opinions?

[reddragon]

Hi Everyone

I was on the internet researching the Heart Sutra, just to get a better understanding of the words and meaning behind those words, and I came across a web page in which Thich Nhat Hanh had re-worded the Heart Sutra, and the reasoning behind this change in words. Here is the link to the webpage. It has a PDF copy of the new Heart Sutra and also a PDF explaining why he felt the words needed to be changed. I was just wondering if anyone had an opinion on this, if he is correct or in error?

http://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/

Thank you very much*gassho*

[Jundo]

Words about a way of seeing beyond all words and definitions ... how can there be "error"?

I personally like our translation ...

with "the/Deep/ Prac/tice/ of/ Per/fect/ Wis/dom" rather than "Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore" ...

... with "form" (implying all things everywhere) rather than his "this body" (which seems limited in meaning) ...

TNH's “ ... are not separate self entities" seems not as rich as "Thus/ emp/ti/ness/ is/ not/ form/; not/ sen/sa/tion/ nor/ per/cep/tion/, not/ for/ma/tion/ nor/ con/scious/ness/" (because we have just been told that they ARE emptiness", so a great paradox).

That is just my personal taste. A scholar and practitioner who does quite a bit of writing on the history and translation of the Heart Sutra says this ...

TNH's own website refers to the translation as "profound and beautiful". This is really not true. Only a disciple of the man, suffering from lack of perspective, would say this. To an outsider the new translation looks turgid and peculiar. In some ways this is no surprise, because the Heart Sutra is tightly packed Buddhist jargon that doesn't translate easily. ...

... translating rūpa as "body" in the context of the five skandhas is peculiar. It is normally taken to mean "form" as a representative of the kinds of objects with which the sense faculties can collide to produce experience. The Heart Sutra itself spells this out when it places form alongside sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles and mental objects (dharmas). And "form" is what was originally used by TNH. It's not clear why he now translates this as "body". ...

... This formula "form is emptiness, emptiness only form" is, for most people including TNH, the central idea in the Heart Sutra. And TNH's project is to rehabilitate the sutra so that this part of it stands. And thus he changes the wording of the conflicting part of the sutra, from

Therefore, in emptiness there is neither form, nor feeling, nor perceptions, nor mental formations, nor consciousness. (Plum Village Chanting Book, 2000)

to


That is why in Emptiness,
Body, Feelings, Perceptions,
Mental Formations and Consciousness
are not separate self entities.

What the Sanskrit text says is Tasmāc chāriputra śūnyatāyām na rūpam... i.e. "Therefore, Śāriputra, in emptiness there is no form, etc" or "with respect to emptiness there is no form". The Sanskrit word for "emptiness" (śūnyatā) is in the locative plural case (śūnyatāyām) and can be read either as "in emptiness" or "with respect to emptiness". In either case it is saying that there is no relationship between form and emptiness, whereas the earlier line states that the two are identical. A flat contradiction. TNH gets around this by changing the text so that it now says that the skandhas are not separate entities. This is by no means bad doctrine from a Mahāyānist point of view, but it is also not what the text says. So TNH's "translation" is something that he has made up to solve an apparent problem (a post hoc rationalisation).

The article continues here ... probably more than you ever wanted or need to know.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jishin]

I want it changed to Mu!

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jishin]

Whack!

or

Don't know.

would work too.

But maybe a little tradition is a good thing.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Rich]

What u talkin about? Don't mess with my heart sutra. -)

Sat today

Sent from my LG-LS720 using Tapatalk

[Mp]

I do have to say that I am bias, but I do like the translation that Jundo has made for us. It has a focus that is more universal and including all things and conditions within this life, not just a focus towards oneself or ones own being. Just my two cents.

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jundo]

I do have to say that I am bias, but I do like the translation that Jundo has made for us. It has a focus that is more universal and including all things and conditions within this life, not just a focus towards oneself or ones own being. Just my two cents.

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

Oh, it is not my translation. It is based on one common in the White Plum through my old mentor, Doshin Cantor. Perhaps Maezumi Roshi and his students are the source? I tweeked a few words wishing to explain some untranslated phrases (the parts in boldface here).

A/vo/lo/ki/tes/va/ra/ Bo/dhi/satt/va/, A/wa/kened/ One/ of/ Com/pas/sion/,

In/ Praj/na/ Pa/ra/mi/ta/, the/Deep/ Prac/tice/ of/ Per/fect/ Wis/dom/*

I also changed "pain" to "suffering", a better rendering for Buddhist "Dukkha". I don't think that I added to or changed anything in the remainder of the Sutra.

From Bernie Glassman:

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=dItZMuPA9xkC&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=%22prajnaparamita%22+%22perceived+the+emptiness+of+all%22+%22form+is+no+other%22&source=bl&ots=Jqdf8kgb7H&sig=0lPb9ZLo0pDE_TH9HRcVVzUJ_rg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwii6P_br-bLAhUBMaYKHbmjByMQ6AEIJjAC#v=onepage&q=%22prajnaparamita%22%20%22perceived%20the%20emptiness%20of%20all%22%20%22form%20is%20no%20other%22&f=false

Gassho, J

[Nameless]

Tried chanting TNH's version once; just wasn't feeling it. Think I'll stick with the one we use.

Gassho, John
SatToday

[Myosha]

Hello,

Thinking the on-site commentator hit the nail on the head -


"One comment on “New Heart Sutra translation by Thich Nhat Hanh”

Robert Healion says:

December 27, 2014 at 0116 -

Sorry, I think Thay has got this one wrong . . ."


Gassho
Myosha sat today

[Kyonin]

Hi everyone.

When I was with the Dalai Lama a few years ago, he gave a teaching about the Heart Sutra.

He said that the original Tibetan version was several scrolls long and that it takes hours to read. So when he doesn't have time and has to go to a public teaching, he chants his super short version:

A.

That's right. Just the letter A. He says that what matters is that you know what it means and that you carry it in your heart to live by it.

So... A!

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Byokan]

Hi everyone.

When I was with the Dalai Lama a few years ago, he gave a teaching about the Heart Sutra.

He said that the original Tibetan version was several scrolls long and that it takes hours to read. So when he doesn't have time and has to go to a public teaching, he chants his super short version:

A.

That's right. Just the letter A. He says that what matters is that you know what it means and that you carry it in your heart to live by it.

So... A!

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

Haha! How cool. A is for Awesome!

I have a similar thing I do. There was a commercial a few years ago for a department store, and it showed eager shoppers crowding outside the entrance in the early morning, chanting, "open, open, open!". Silly, but the chanting stuck in my head. Now when chaos is all around and I realize I'm all caught up in it, I just stop, take one deep breath, and say to myself, "open, open, open!" And to me it means open heart, open hands, open mind, relax, take a breath, come back, reconnect... and then back into the fray, but mindfully. Mini-mantra! Not quite as good as the Heart Sutra but will do in a pinch.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat today

[Nameless]

Now when chaos is all around and I realize I'm all caught up in it, I just stop, take one deep breath, and say to myself, "open, open, open!" And to me it means open heart, open hands, open mind, relax, take a breath, come back, reconnect... and then back into the fray, but mindfully. Mini-mantra! Not quite as good as the Heart Sutra but will do in a pinch.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat today

That's exactly what "Wu" does with me. "Wu it, dude, just Wu it."

Gassho, John
SatToday

[Kokuu]

When I was with the Dalai Lama a few years ago, he gave a teaching about the Heart Sutra.

He said that the original Tibetan version was several scrolls long and that it takes hours to read. So when he doesn't have time and has to go to a public teaching, he chants his super short version:

A.

Hi all

When the prajnaparamita literature began, at first it seemed to expand into larger and larger sutras. Then, with those becoming rather unwieldy, shorter versions were composed that captured the essence of what the longer sutras were saying. The Heart Sutra is one of those. One sutra was indeed just the letter A which, in Sanskrit, is a negation (such as ahimsa - non-harming and anatman - no-self). A is, as far as I see, rather like our own Zen Mu and a pointer against taking anything as real, substantial or unchanging.

Gassho
Kokuu

[Byokan]

Wow, thanks Kokuu, that brings it out into a whole new light! A -- of course.

When I think of Mu, or A-himsa, or A-natta, I have a feeling about it, that it's, somehow, not just not... Somehow it is beyond positive or negative, beyond having or not having... hard to put into words. I am no Zen scholar, so it's just a feeling. Poorly stated, lol.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat today

[Kokuu]

When I think of Mu, or A-himsa, or A-natta, I have a feeling about it, that it's, somehow, not just not... Somehow it is beyond positive or negative, beyond having or not having... hard to put into words. I am no Zen scholar, so it's just a feeling. Poorly stated, lol.

For me it is a pointer that whatever you say will miss it. Direct experience is the only thing, there are no concepts or words that can possibly contain it. Every attempt to make it something concrete or defined kills it dead.