You never really master it.

[Ongen]

Hi everyone!

Reading Brad Warner's latest book. It's great, so far. I read the Chodo Cross translation of Shobogenzo which is absolutely wonderful but Brad's version manages to really speak to me. Like a one-on-one with Dogen himself

So I'll quote this bit. First the question that Dogen gets asked a lot, then his answer :

FAQ 12: "Does it mess up your zazen practice if you also practice other stuff like changing mantras or doing vipassana (analytical introspection)?"
My teachers in China told me they had never heard of any authentic master combining those kinds of practices with zazen. Unless you completely devote yourself to one practice, you'll never really master it.

So, how do we sutra-chanting, oriyoki-practicing, forum-dwelling soto practitioners feel about this? Are we still doing things in a too fancy manner?


Gassho
Ongen

Sat Today

[Jundo]

Hi Ongen,

One of the more standard translations says ...

Q: Is there any objection to a serious student of zazen practicing the mantra of the Shingon sect and the Samathavipa'syana (calm and insight) of the Tendai sect together?

A: When I was in China and heard the gist of Buddhism from the Zen masters, they said they had never heard of any patriarchs who truly transmitted the Buddha seal, now and in the past, undertaking such simultaneous training. Unless we earnestly concentrate on one thing, we cannot gain one wisdom.

You have to take the comment on "only one thing" realizing that Dogen did many things. In fact, he was the fellow who wrote the book (literally) on Oryoki with all the rules we follow ...

http://wwzc.org/dharma-text/fushukuhanpo-how-use-your-bowls

It has also been shown that, in day to day life in the monastery, Dogen engaged in many other Practices besides sitting, such as various Ceremonies, Bowing, reciting the names of Buddhas, Studying and reciting Sutras and the like (p 75 here) ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=Y5rpvHeb1FMC&dq=inauthor%3A%22Steven+Heine%22&q=Dogen%27s+Take+syncretistic#v=snippet&q=Dogen's%20Take%20syncretistic&f=false

However, it is clear that he meant that, when sitting Zazen, that is the only action in all reality in that moment. Just do that. There is nothing else to do in the whole universe when sitting than sitting.

And when rising from the cushion to get on with the rest of life, just do that. There is nothing else. He left detailed rules on everything from wearing robes to taking a bath to going to the toilet that make it clear that each such ordinary act is a sacred ritual. All of life is "Zazen" in its wider meaning.

BUT ...in the above passage, Dogen is talking about mixing and matching certain practices with Zazen that don't fit well, in his view. He is talking about certain kinds of mantra recitation common in esoteric forms of Buddhism. Contrary to what Brad says, he is not talking about "Vipassana" meditation in the manner most people practice in the West these days. It is a much more intense, goal oriented type of Practice than what most Westerners undertake. However, I do agree that even modern Vipassana meditation does not really mix well with Shikantaza, although we also engage in such awareness off the Zazen cushion as I explain here ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12929-Vipassana-Fellowship&p=141932&viewfull=1#post141932

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[RichardH]

Hi Ongen. My first Buddhist education was in the common ABC's, and these Buddha Basics are at the heart of our tradition and our zazen, and our community. I do not see much extra. All our activities are in support of practice, including the exploration of art and culture, and play.

There are beautiful and true traditions apart from Buddhism, and sealing myself off from them would be obtuse, as it would be to think our way is The One True Way. Yet, at the same time, in order to plumb the real depths of our way, I need to be focused on it, and not mentally dispersed.

Just a personal view.

Gassho
Daizan

sat today

[Jakuden]

Thanks for asking Ongen I had the same question/interest. And thank you Jundo and everyone for answering.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Byrne]

I've found that most really good teachers are teaching something very specific and focused. Every discussions bobs and weaves endlessly until the teacher redirects it to the one big thing they're trying to get across. To get it across they need you to feel it in your bones. A lot like learning music. To learn music you seek out the people who are doing what is resonating with you. No great musician can do everything. The best ones have a really specific focus, and that focus is usually abstract and beyond words. You hang around them, maybe take lessons, maybe play gigs, whatever. Eventually you learn that one big thing and your music is forever enhanced.

But Buddhism is a little more serious than music. Playing music there is only room for us to go so far. In the reaches of our minds our delusions can lead us astray easily. How many times have you held a pet theory about Buddhism only to have it smashed to pieces by a good teacher? You gotta be careful with mixing practices. Otherwise you may lose your focus and miss the one big thing the teacher is trying to get across through the practice they teach as they have been taught by someone else.

Curiosity and interest in all things outside of the realm of practices is healthy and important. You just need to be constantly discerning. And that reaponsibility and judgement is all you.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Jundo]

I've found that most really good teachers are teaching something very specific and focused. Every discussions bobs and weaves endlessly until the teacher redirects it to the one big thing they're trying to get across. To get it across they need you to feel it in your bones. A lot like learning music. To learn music you seek out the people who are doing what is resonating with you. No great musician can do everything. The best ones have a really specific focus, and that focus is usually abstract and beyond words. You hang around them, maybe take lessons, maybe play gigs, whatever. Eventually you learn that one big thing and your music is forever enhanced.

But Buddhism is a little more serious than music. In physical field of playing music there are room for us to go so far. In the reaches of our minds our delusions can lead us astray easily. How many times have you held a pet theory about Buddhism only to have it smashed to pieces by a good teacher? You gotta be careful with mixing practices. Otherwise you may lose your focus and miss the one big thing the teacher is trying to get across through the practice they teach as they have been taught by someone else.

Curiosity and interest in all things outside of the realm of practices is healthy and important. You just need to be constantly discerning. And that reaponsibility and judgement is all you.

Gassho

Sat Today

Lovely. I frequently say that Zen teaching is a lot like teaching music. Piano students,, as they mature and come to find their own sound, need not play Brahms exactly the same way as each other or their Teacher. Heck, some may eventually prefer a bit jazzier sound, some Jerry Lee, some Polka! (Do they play pianos much in polka? ) Somewhat different intonations, fingering, somewhat different flavor or emphasis, harmony and disharmony, varying degrees of following or breaking musical tradition and "the rules".

However, all the same piano, same 88 keys, same notes and chords. Hopefully all good music.

As with Brahms, so Buddha. That's how Buddhism through the ages has been as varied as the history of music.

HOWEVER, until such time, students need to learn the basics, scales, composition. They should study the classics and old masters in the Tradition (if ya want to develop an ear for jazz or Zen, listen to lots of old Coltrane-Dogen or Huineng-Dizzy ... Buddhist Monk or Thelonius Monk). We are trying to make these Timeless Tunes relevant for modern times and Western people, but still ... learn from the old dudes. We may play a synthesizer, and they played a harpsichord, but same difference!

These days, folks want to learn a little of this or a little of that, and dabble. That is fine, and different people have different expectations and needs, but they may end up just knowing a few chords on the guitar and a handful of songs.

Or, if they mix and match too much, they may end up with something just weird ... like Gangnam Style Polka (okay, makes me laugh, which is important too! Never stop laughing!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GU-nu4I6Ps

... and kinda gotta admit I REALLY like this Polka Let It Be ... with Kazoos! But ya gotta have some talent and basic skills to pull this off, no?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXtx8syAfRQ

And for Shikantaza, there is something very special that requires us to not flit from this to that to the next thing. Namely, Shikantaza is based on the principle of sitting as one thing, the only thing, nothing to take or give away. We live in a world where folks are never satisfied, chasing after goals and the next fun or thrilling thing. They don't know how to sit and just listen to ... just be ... the music. Hard to practice "just this" if someone is mixing in "just this other thing and the next." Shikantaza is the One Note that Holds ALL HARMONY! It is the Perfect Silence that fills all life's noise ...

even Gangnam Style Polka.

Anyway, another for my musical metaphor for today.

Gassho, Jundo, the Piano Teacher

SatToday

[Jakuden]

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] Those are Awesome and awful at the same time.

Thank you for the lesson.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Ongen]

As you know musical referrences are never lost on me

Thank you for your thoughts. I'm a fan of Dogens music, no doubt about that

I do not see much extra. All our activities are in support of practice, including the exploration of art and culture, and play.

Me neither, I muchly support "all of life is our practice". I think it's about the mindset we are doing things in. I think if we chant mantras or sutras with the idea they will bring us something, we're doing it differently than if we're just chanting sutras. If we practice Oriyoki with a goal other than practicing Oriyoki, or eating, perhaps we're only getting further away.

Still if I look around me I (in the Netherlands) sometimes get the idea there are many people practicing this soto style because they get this fancy rakusu, because they need to belong. Just wondering out loud now... I was like that when I started practicing anyway...

Gassho
Ongen

Sat Today

[Bokusei]

Brad Warner discusses his book on the latest secular Buddhist podcast:

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-secular-buddhist/id333093081?mt=2

Gassho

Bokusei

SaT
ToDaY

[Myosha]

Hello,

Thank you for the link.


Gassho
Myosha sat today