This is an illusion, why stay in it?

[Jundo]

This is an interesting thread. Lots of philosophy that may do very little to help somebody in acute distress. People in acute distress do not always pick up a zen/Buddhist book or sit Zazen to alleviate pain because they are consumed with emotions and the emotions are too strong for rational thinking. Jundo does a good job of pointing out Zazen limitations. Don't forget them. It may be very very hazardous to your health.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Actually, need to be cautious.

As you are well aware, for someone with a loose grip on reality or in a shakey emotional state, all this "it is just a dream, we are heads in a scientist's bottle" talk can be very destabilizing.

For such folks, I should emphasize that this world is also held by Dogen and others to be as solid and wonderful as can be ... if only we get rid of all that negative thoughts and fears.

Gassho, J

SatToday very Solid and Wonderful

[Jishin]

[emoji120]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Aurkihnowe]

A person in distress picks up a gun and pulls the trigger. Philosophy is bullshit.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

i think you misunderstood me. I am not saying philosophical speculation is an alleviant to "acute distress". Speaking personally as someone who has attempted suicide, i would pray that someone wouldn't do something as horrific as shooting themselves or another. I just added on the philosophical afterbit as an addition to the subject of, "if life is a dream, why live" discussion. Joke, what do you get when you cross Camus with Zen? Alan Watts! (ok it's not a very good joke)

gassho (namaste)

[Myosha]

As the title might suggest, why should we not just die?

Hello,


The many beings are numberless,
I vow to save them.
Greed, hatred and ignorance rise endlessly,
I vow to abandon them.
Dharma gates are countless,
I vow to wake to them.
Buddhas way is unsurpassed,
I vow to embody it fully.


Gassho
Myosha sat today

[Jundo]

Hello,


The many beings are numberless,
I vow to save them.

This is an excellent reminder. As bodhisattvas, we are not in this for ourselves.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jundo]

i think you misunderstood me. I am not saying philosophical speculation is an alleviant to "acute distress". Speaking personally as someone who has attempted suicide, i would pray that someone wouldn't do something as horrific as shooting themselves or another. I just added on the philosophical afterbit as an addition to the subject of, "if life is a dream, why live" discussion. Joke, what do you get when you cross Camus with Zen? Alan Watts! (ok it's not a very good joke)

gassho (namaste)

Don't mind too much about Jishin. He is just our hardheaded grumpy gus in this dream. But we love him, so we keep him around. Like those big dogs he owns, the growl and ferocious look are much worse than the bite. All real pussy cats.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jishin]

Don't mind too much about Jishin. He is just our hardheaded grumpy gus in this dream. But we love him, so we keep him around. Like those big dogs he owns, the growl and ferocious look are much worse than the bite. All real pussy cats.

Gassho, J

SatToday

Thanks for not throwing me out of the sangha. I mean that. Just get a little moody sometimes but I always mean well.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Byokan]

Scaryw,

it's interesting to discuss these ideas, but really, I'm getting a little worried that we haven't heard from you these last few days. I hope all is well with you. Please check in with your Sangha -- post something, send a PM, or email Jundo -- there's lots of folks here who genuinely care about you and will listen if you want to talk. Hopefully you're just busy... but if you are in crisis, I'm sorry we misread the cue at first. If you're suffering, you are not alone, lots of us have been there and can relate. Please reach out.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat today

http://www.suicide.org/international-suicide-hotlines.html

[Jishin]

i think you misunderstood me. I am not saying philosophical speculation is an alleviant to "acute distress". Speaking personally as someone who has attempted suicide, i would pray that someone wouldn't do something as horrific as shooting themselves or another. I just added on the philosophical afterbit as an addition to the subject of, "if life is a dream, why live" discussion. Joke, what do you get when you cross Camus with Zen? Alan Watts! (ok it's not a very good joke)

gassho (namaste)

Misunderstood you.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Washin]

It has to be very concrete to be of much value when a person is hurting a lot and not able to reason very well. My example sometimes is too abstract but I think it helps a lot of people and it is based upon Buddhist teachings. Because this exists, that exists. Because this arises, that arises.

Thank you Jishin. Well put.

Gassho
Washin
ST

[Sozan]

Living is the leading cause of death, so we are 'mostly dead'.

https://youtu.be/X90qKQAMh8A

Gassho,
Sozan

s@2day

[Judith del Carmen]

As the title might suggest, why should we not just die?

Scareyw, and why should we not just live?
Gassho
Sat today

[pinoybuddhist]

We are dying all the time. No need to rush. [emoji6]

[emoji1431] Raf
Sat today


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[JimH]

Illusions and dreams.....they always make me think of this story:

"Once upon a time, Chuang Tzu dreamed that he was a butterfly, flying about enjoying itself. It did not know that it was Chuang Chou. Suddenly he awoke, and veritably was Chuang Chou again. He did not know whether it was Chuang Chou dreaming that he was a butterfly, or whether it was the butterfly dreaming that it was Chuang Chou."

Or from the book "Illusions" (apt enough title!): "You are forgetting that everything going on around you is not reality. Think about that."

If we are truly being held by illusions, and realize that "fact", then we are, essentially, "in the Matrix". It's like a lucid dream: if you realize it's illusion and see it for what it is/isn't, then you should have the power to control it and make it what you will.

I agree with Jundo referencing Descartes: I know what "reality" is vs. what "dream" is. "Reality" is consistent to some degree, and doesn't change. Dreams do, and are almost never the same twice. Since I can't change all of the aspects of reality, I will change my interpretations of some of them. I can define what is worth worrying about, what is worth avoiding, what I can do to help others, etc.

Then again, maybe this holds more truth than I used to think:

[Eva]

As the title might suggest, why should we not just die?

thinking that death is different from illusion is the true illusion .
thinking you are "in it" means you still believe it is real .

Gassho,
eva
isattoday and also LAH

PS I'm aware this is an ancient thread; however, I don't know why I wanted to answer to this.