This is an illusion, why stay in it?

[Byrne]

Whenever I get a grocery store discount card I use the name Pedro Kardashian. Every once and a while a cashier calls me that and that makes my life a tiny bit niftier.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Entai]

My suicide attempt had little to do with philosophy or logic of any kind. It was more of a fight or flight response where neither choice seemed possible. Now with a clear (-ish) mind, I don't think there's any place to go and "here" is as good of a place as any.

I continue to come back to "embracing all conditions of life". "Embracing" goes beyond "accepting". To me, learning to embrace is the key. Day by day, moment by moment.

Plus I would have missed Batman vs. Superman!

My two cents.
Gassho, Entai
#SatToday

[Jundo]

I continue to come back to "embracing all conditions of life". "Embracing" goes beyond "accepting". To me, learning to embrace is the key. Day by day, moment by moment.

Plus I would have missed Batman vs. Superman!

[treebeard]

It may be a dream but it is interconnected with countless others so why not observe, appreciate, and nudge the whole mix in a positive direction now and again I figure.

I am another one who suicidal tendencies pushed into the Buddhist philosophical direction and still deal with them, but not as strongly now that I have a better way of dealing with suffering.

Gassho,
Paul
Sat today.

Sent from my Z813 using Tapatalk

[Risho]

I understand why the Buddha didn't answer these types of questions. Well, for one, no one knows and two, it's aside from the point. And it's aside from the point because it doesn't resonate, it doesn't help anything.

This topic starts with a lot of assumptions, like "this is an illusion". What does that mean to be an illusion? Do you mean this is fake? How do you know? What in particular is fake? And again, how does anyone know what is fake or real? Illusion as opposed to what? Illusion to whom? Illusion in what context?

There is a lot of stuff going on that we simply aren't aware of, just by virtue of our consciousness filtering things out, the limitations of our sense perceptions, etc. I think everything is in context. We know things from a human perspective - everything we are aware of or experience, or even if it's fake -think we're experiencing, is limited to our abilities to think, perceive, etc. as a human being.

It's interesting that in science they are finding that we don't actually touch each other or that what we create an idea of reality in our heads, as a function of our brain and other perceptions, etc but also with our thoughts.

So I think it's useful to know that hey we don't know everything, that what we think may not actually be real, so we need to just drop those thoughts or sometimes let things be and not be driven by our desires, etc

I think that's very helpful to live in this world.

But I think when things get so esoterically, philosophical, or specious statements or truisms start getting thrown around, I think it gets so far off the topic, or just into the realm of speculation, it doesn't really do any good any longer.

I mean, "Hey you live in illusion" does me no good. It doesn't even really make sense to me. That knowledge just does no good because I can't do anything with it, let alone really make any sense of it. This may be a painted rice cake, but it's real to me and even if it is fake I have to live with it. And that's where it's helpful, how to live.

To steal from the Buddha's example, it's like if I got shot, and I was bleeding out. Knowing the make and model of the gun, knowing that hey the bullet never really touched me because particles never really touch does not stop the bleeding.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[treebeard]

At least for me the idea that not all may be as it seems ie "a dream" is a valuable tool in helping me not to judge too swiftly, as my perception may be incorrect. My brain is actually chemically wired (thanks family genes) to exaggerate and distort my perceptions and feelings, so being slow to judge or act is very helpful in not going coo coo for cocoa puffs, and spares some of those near to me some ugly experiences entering their worlds/dreams.
Admittedly things get pretty abstract fast when talking about perception. I am one that actually learns better through the abstract though. It engages my thought process more. This has been a great thread for it.

Gassho,
Paul
Sat today.



Sent from my Z813 using Tapatalk

[Kyonin]

Cardassians.

Yes, I want to keep up with them

[Jakuden]

Cardassians.

Yes, I want to keep up with them

Gul Dukat was always my favorite. Such a wonderful villainous slimeball. I'll take Cardassians over Kardashians any day!

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Jakuden]

I understand why the Buddha didn't answer these types of questions. Well, for one, no one knows and two, it's aside from the point. And it's aside from the point because it doesn't resonate, it doesn't help anything.

This topic starts with a lot of assumptions, like "this is an illusion". What does that mean to be an illusion? Do you mean this is fake? How do you know? What in particular is fake? And again, how does anyone know what is fake or real? Illusion as opposed to what? Illusion to whom? Illusion in what context?

There is a lot of stuff going on that we simply aren't aware of, just by virtue of our consciousness filtering things out, the limitations of our sense perceptions, etc. I think everything is in context. We know things from a human perspective - everything we are aware of or experience, or even if it's fake -think we're experiencing, is limited to our abilities to think, perceive, etc. as a human being.

It's interesting that in science they are finding that we don't actually touch each other or that what we create an idea of reality in our heads, as a function of our brain and other perceptions, etc but also with our thoughts.

So I think it's useful to know that hey we don't know everything, that what we think may not actually be real, so we need to just drop those thoughts or sometimes let things be and not be driven by our desires, etc

I think that's very helpful to live in this world.

But I think when things get so esoterically, philosophical, or specious statements or truisms start getting thrown around, I think it gets so far off the topic, or just into the realm of speculation, it doesn't really do any good any longer.

I mean, "Hey you live in illusion" does me no good. It doesn't even really make sense to me. That knowledge just does no good because I can't do anything with it, let alone really make any sense of it. This may be a painted rice cake, but it's real to me and even if it is fake I have to live with it. And that's where it's helpful, how to live.

To steal from the Buddha's example, it's like if I got shot, and I was bleeding out. Knowing the make and model of the gun, knowing that hey the bullet never really touched me because particles never really touch does not stop the bleeding.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

Yes is it just me, or does it seem as if the Buddha was not so interested in "why" questions? They are mostly irrelevant and seem to contribute to Dukkha... as you said, "why" is kind of beside the point, although we seem programmed to ask it for some reason. All we know is illusion or not, it's what we've got. Poop here, ice cream there... pain here, pleasure there... none of it forever or permanent, although it can be a pretty intense illusion in the thick of it!

Carey are you ok and still out there?

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Aurkihnowe]

the desire for nonexistence is just another form of useless craving...

[Nameless]

What an excellent thread, thank you everyone

I don't blather on here much anymore unless I really, really feel compelled to. Usually I just watch like the creepy guy in the corner.

Anyway, heard a great metaphor once on this issue. Imagine you walk into a shadowy room and see a snake coiled in the corner. You freeze. Your heart starts racing as adrenaline coarses through your veins. Cold sweat beads down your forehead. You're afraid.

Then someone walks into the room and you say, "Don't move! There's a snake right there! It might be venomous!" "Snake? What snake? That's an old rope!" You doubt the stranger at first. Then she or he kicks it and it doesn't move. So you walk over, kick it and finally pick it up - it's just a rope.

Maybe the illusion thing is kinda like that ya know? Sure, it might just be a rope but the fear was real enough. When we thought it was a snake then, to the mind, it was a snake. Jundo and the ancestors are telling us it's a rope. So then we go over, kick it a few times and realize, "Great Scott! It is a rope!"

Gassho, John
SatToday

[Nameless]

So asking, "Is there a point or not?" is kinda like asking, "Is that snake venomous or not?" That question only makes sense if I think it's a snake. If I know it's a rope, the question doesn't apply. Kinda like asking, "Is water a mammal or a reptile?" "Does the color nine smell like cherries or apples?" Stuff like that haha.

Gassho, John
SatToday

[Jishin]

This is an interesting thread. Lots of philosophy that may do very little to help somebody in acute distress. People in acute distress do not always pick up a zen/Buddhist book or sit Zazen to alleviate pain because they are consumed with emotions and the emotions are too strong for rational thinking. Jundo does a good job of pointing out Zazen limitations. Don't forget them. It may be very very hazardous to your health.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Aurkihnowe]

This is an interesting thread. Lots of philosophy that may do very little to help somebody in acute distress. People in acute distress do not always pick up a zen/Buddhist book or sit Zazen to alleviate pain because they are consumed with emotions and the emotions are too strong for rational thinking. Jundo does a good job of pointing out Zazen limitations. Don't forget them. It may be very very hazardous to your health.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Good point about acute distress, although if someone was in acute distress their are options for immediate help. if you want existential discussion sartre would say suicide is acting in "bad faith" and camus would say that, despite the absurdity and apparent meaninglessness of life, one should choose to live on (it's been awhile since i paged through "the myth of sisyphus")

[Jishin]

This is an illusion, why stay in it?

Good point about acute distress, although if someone was in acute distress their are options for immediate help. if you want existential discussion sartre would say suicide is acting in "bad faith" and camus would say that, despite the absurdity and apparent meaninglessness of life, one should choose to live on (it's been awhile since i paged through "the myth of sisyphus")

It is very hard to think about anything when you have a jackhammer on your foot. At this point you have one thought.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_