Zazen with Chronic Illness

[Ryumon]

A recent discussion among some Zen teachers came to the conclusion that Zazen itself might not reduce pain very much (and even the Zen teachers find it hard to sit frequently in the face of migraines, severe back pain and the like). However, they all said that Zazen helps one accept and allow the situation, which is half the battle.

I, too, have chronic pain. Not permanent, all the time, but often enough that sitting is problematic. There are days I can sit and days I can't. I find that, as Jundo says, Zazen does help with the acceptance, allowing me to not fight the pain and amplify it.

I am always surprised when I read "Zen teachers" who say you can't do zazen if you're not sitting cross-legged.

But, hey, what do I know.

Kirk

SatToday

[Jika]

I was reminded of this thread some days ago.
I experienced pain and muscle cramps at work, and, not being used to pain, there was a point I considered crying.
Then I noticed I did not feel the need to cry because of the pain itself (like some unbearable or sudden pain), but because of my added thoughts.
"I don't want this, let it stop, poor me..."
I then felt that those added thoughts are not worth tears, and I'd probably not feel better giving in to them.

I'm not saying Zazen is making me be hard against myself, it only gives me some space between the actual pain and all mind-theatre associated with it.

Thank you for your teachings.
Gassho
Jika
#sattoday

[Meian]

I'm coming off of another round of cluster migraines, weather related. I tried to post yesterday, i think, but the app wouldn't let me. One time i have found conducive to sitting is when I've taken medicine and am being quiet to let it work. I tried setting a timer for 5-10 minutes and sitting, sometimes chanting to focus my mind - this is especially helpful when I'm in significant pain. It has worked well so far. It doesn't remove the pain, but it allows me to relax and function better. In fact, I used zazen as an example a few times in my Pharmacology class on alternative ways to manage pain Just wanted to share how my zazen practice, even with chronic pain, is evolving.

Gassho,
Kim
Will sit today.

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[Shoki]

Kim,
After a lifetime of taking care of myself I now have arthritis and degenerative spinal disease which means I have head and neck pain every day. Do whatever you have to do. There is an old video somewhere on here where Jundo says "There is no bad zazen." I always remember that. I'll sit tonight with you with a headache.

Gassho
Sat Today
James

[Toun]

Kim,

Thank you for your post since I can really connect with what you mentioned.

I suffer from chronic respiratory insufficiency which at times can produce a great amount of discomfort. This usually comes in the form of shortness of breath that can become quite severe and which makes sitting a real challenge. There are times when I feel so fatigued that just practicing zazen and trying to focus on my breath can be very frustrating. Worry and anxiety also tends to increase the discomfort.

Yet at the same time I recognize that I do have days when I feel that things are under control and I can actually sit. These are my good days… although not perfect ones. Instead of trying to follow a set schedule, I try to adopt my sitting as to how I am feeling. This might mean 5, 10, or at most 15 to 20 minutes of sitting. I might start the day feeling “so-so” but in the afternoon I might feel better and engage in zazen. Sometimes it might just be sitting quietly for a few moments in a chair, gently observing my thoughts.

I have learned to not push and force myself, but to just go with the present flow, much like a leaf being gently carried on the wind.
I know all of this is easier said than done since sickness can really take so much out of us.

So many wonderful comments on this thread.

Much metta and the best of wishes.
Gassho

Sat2day
Mike

[Washin]

Hi all,

Would like to share in this thread an article I've just read...

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/monkeymind/2016/04/a-zen-meditation-on-pain.html

Gassho
Washin
sat today

[Mp]

Hi all,

Would like to share in this thread an article I've just read...

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/monkeymind/2016/04/a-zen-meditation-on-pain.html

Gassho
Washin
sat today

Thank you Washin. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Toun]

Hello and thank you Washin,

I just read the article and it really resonated with be.

The pain and discomfort I experience is usually momentary and I find ways to live with it from day to day. Occasionally I might feel good for quite a number of days before i start to relapse. On the other hand, I can imagine this can be extremely hard for a person that has to live with intense discomfort and pain from second to second on a daily basis.

I like the way how the author, Chris Amirault puts it when he mentions:

"Learning zazen (Zen meditation) does not prevent you from experiencing the thrum of leg cramps, sudden piercing sensations along your surgical incision, or the sizzle of the red-hot steel rods that seem to have been inserted where your ribs used to be.

What zazen does teach you, however, is how to sit with, inside, around, and otherwise immersed in that pain, in each of its particular shapes and flavors."

Once again thanks for the link to this very thought provoking article.
Metta to all those struggling with sickness and illness.

Gassho,
Mike

Sat today

[Washin]

Hello Mike,

Thank you for your comment.
Metta to all who're suffering from illness and pain.

Gassho
Washin
ST

[Myosha]

Hello,

Thank you for the link.


Gassho
Myosha sat today

[Eishuu]

Thanks for the link Washin. I enjoyed the article.

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

[Jakuden]

Good article Washin, thank you!

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Meian]

Out of necessity I have been learning and practicing "sitting while reclining" during cluster migraines. I am unable to do much of anything physically pduring migraines, so I've taken to holding my beads (they give me comfort) and just sitting, or just laying, and going blank for a while. Random thoughts and even lucid dreams float through, but time passes quietly as i am unaware of the time at all. My awareness becomes simply being, only existing, and all else fades away (except for phone calls, traffic, odd house noises, dog and cat fights .....).

Sometimes i do actual sitting, when i am up to it. Other times, I sit with my illness, and my mind, body and illness take a short walk through zazen.

Gassho
Kim
Sat today

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[Meian]

[QUOTE/]

I like the way how the author, Chris Amirault puts it when he mentions:

"Learning zazen (Zen meditation) does not prevent you from experiencing the thrum of leg cramps, sudden piercing sensations along your surgical incision, or the sizzle of the red-hot steel rods that seem to have been inserted where your ribs used to be.

What zazen does teach you, however, is how to sit with, inside, around, and otherwise immersed in that pain, in each of its particular shapes and flavors."

[/QUOTE]

I very much agree ...... i am learning this about zazen as well.

Sorry, I am just catching up to some "old" posts .....

Gassho
Kim
Sst today

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[Jundo]

Out of necessity I have been learning and practicing "sitting while reclining" during cluster migraines. I am unable to do much of anything physically pduring migraines, so I've taken to holding my beads (they give me comfort) and just sitting, or just laying, and going blank for a while. Random thoughts and even lucid dreams float through, but time passes quietly as i am unaware of the time at all. My awareness becomes simply being, only existing, and all else fades away (except for phone calls, traffic, odd house noises, dog and cat fights .....).

Sometimes i do actual sitting, when i am up to it. Other times, I sit with my illness, and my mind, body and illness take a short walk through zazen.

Gassho
Kim
Sat today

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Lovely. If that is how you need to "sit", then recline so.

Also, let all resistance to the moment go. In fact, feel in your bones that the moment is sacred, the only place to be, position to be in, and action needing doing (and non-action non-doing) in that sacred moment as you recline.

Dogen said in Fukanzazengi (right before he gave instruction in his suggested Lotus Posture ... and folks forget he said this ... )

For practicing Zen, a quiet room is suitable. Eat and drink moderately. Put aside all involvements and suspend all affairs. Do not think "good" or "bad." Do not judge true or false. Give up the operations of mind, intellect, and consciousness; stop measuring with thoughts, ideas, and views. Have no designs on becoming a Buddha. How could that be limited to sitting or lying down?
https://web.stanford.edu/group/scbs/...n_zazengi.html

Gassho, J

SatToday