Using rational thinking

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  • Sim175
    Member
    • Sep 2015
    • 16

    Using rational thinking

    Hello Treeleaf,

    I have a little experience I'd like to share with you and I'd like to know your opinions on a question it brought up regarding practice.

    Last week, I was having some soup, and obviously, I burned my tongue because I was impatient and I just had to gulp it down right out of the microwave But later in the day, for some reason, I was thinking of the incident, and I had read earlier in the day about the non-separation of things ("talking from both sides of their no-sided mouth" is something Jundo wrote, I believe, that I had read). At that moment, I worked out that logically, there's no "me", only an assembly of cells, some of which are on the tip of my tongue and send electrical signals to my brain when confronted by a stimulus. Moreover, there's no "hot soup", there's just some water, with some chicken parts in it, and all those molecules were accelerated because of the heating. (For me, subjectively, it's hot, yet compared to lava, it isn't).

    Then, the only thing that truely was there was the impermanent relation between what I called soup and what I called my tongue : the burning.

    That realization, for some reason, brought me great calm and a feeling of artificial separations weakening between me and the universe. I felt more interwoven with the world, simply not separate from the universe, but part of the tapestry. I could actually feel the little tensions in my forehead melt away. Freedom and lightness of being at last !

    Of course, it barely lasted 15 min. and since then I've been trying to recreate the same understanding. It seems to me that using logic, in that case, actually provoked a deeper understanding of the nature of the self.

    My question to you all : do you think using rational thinking and understanding is ultimately counterproductive to "getting it" in our guts? Should I only attempt to drop all conceptual thinking and wait for the "aha" moment to hit me in the face instead?

    Thank you for reading
    Sim
    Sat yesterday night
  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40772

    #2
    Originally posted by Sim175
    Hello Treeleaf,

    I have a little experience I'd like to share with you and I'd like to know your opinions on a question it brought up regarding practice.

    Last week, I was having some soup, and obviously, I burned my tongue because I was impatient and I just had to gulp it down right out of the microwave But later in the day, for some reason, I was thinking of the incident, and I had read earlier in the day about the non-separation of things ("talking from both sides of their no-sided mouth" is something Jundo wrote, I believe, that I had read). At that moment, I worked out that logically, there's no "me", only an assembly of cells, some of which are on the tip of my tongue and send electrical signals to my brain when confronted by a stimulus. Moreover, there's no "hot soup", there's just some water, with some chicken parts in it, and all those molecules were accelerated because of the heating. (For me, subjectively, it's hot, yet compared to lava, it isn't).

    Then, the only thing that truely was there was the impermanent relation between what I called soup and what I called my tongue : the burning.

    That realization, for some reason, brought me great calm and a feeling of artificial separations weakening between me and the universe. I felt more interwoven with the world, simply not separate from the universe, but part of the tapestry. I could actually feel the little tensions in my forehead melt away. Freedom and lightness of being at last !

    Of course, it barely lasted 15 min. and since then I've been trying to recreate the same understanding. It seems to me that using logic, in that case, actually provoked a deeper understanding of the nature of the self.

    My question to you all : do you think using rational thinking and understanding is ultimately counterproductive to "getting it" in our guts? Should I only attempt to drop all conceptual thinking and wait for the "aha" moment to hit me in the face instead?

    Thank you for reading
    Sim
    Sat yesterday night
    Reason is sometimes very helpful, and I see nothing about your description of what even modern science tells us about ourselves that is wrong.

    But there is also a time when reason needs to be put down. Then we feel our true Soupness!

    We are carrots floating in the Buddha-bouillon of all reality, not seeing that we are the vegetable soup itself!

    Delicious!

    Gassho, Jundo
    Last edited by Jundo; 03-18-2016, 04:39 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    Comment

    • Rich
      Member
      • Apr 2009
      • 2614

      #3
      Chill out. Relax, enjoy. Just sit. That's it, nothing else to get.

      Just sayin cause knowing a 1000 excuses not to sit and thinkin there was a bottom to all this.

      SAT today
      _/_
      Rich
      MUHYO
      無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

      https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

      Comment

      • Mp

        #4
        Originally posted by Rich
        Chill out. Relax, enjoy. Just sit. That's it, nothing else to get.

        Just sayin cause knowing a 1000 excuses not to sit and thinkin there was a bottom to all this.

        SAT today
        Yes! =)

        Gassho
        Shingen

        #sattoday

        Comment

        • Meian
          Member
          • Apr 2015
          • 1720

          #5
          Hello all,

          Sim - love your description, and the conclusion you came to. I do that as well - the rational thinking that leads to deeper understanding and experience of all as one, and as nothing. I am very quiet "in person" because I am usually deep in thought, reflecting on the nature of various things. Sometimes, rational thinking helps me grasp the "nothing/all" result faster and better. Other times, I find I really need to get out of my own mind and be "blank" to gain any sense of clarity. Depends on the subject, and depends on my mindset. Some of my best thinking and figuring out happens near running water (washing pots and doing laundry do wonders for my mental clarity). Other times, the answer presents itself in my mind when I am not thinking at all - just random images and thoughts flitting in and out like a hyperactive screensaver, and an answer happens to be among them.

          Jundo - love your response ..... "we are carrots floating in the Buddha-bouillon of all reality, not seeing that we are the vegetable soup itself!" ..... sounds like classic Jundo wisdom.

          Now I am hungry for soup.

          Gassho,
          Kim
          #st
          鏡道 |​ Kyodo (Meian) | "Mirror of the Way"
          visiting Unsui
          Nothing I say is a teaching, it's just my own opinion.

          Comment

          • Jakuden
            Member
            • Jun 2015
            • 6141

            #6
            I think scientific/rational knowlege can lead you to a Zennish place because from a scientific perspective, we are clearly all made of the same stuff, no beginning, end, birth, death, or separation of any kind. Once that knowlege gets you to that place, though, then all you can do is dissolve into the soup and sit with it

            Gassho,
            Jakuden
            SatToday

            Comment

            • Doshin
              Member
              • May 2015
              • 2634

              #7
              Originally posted by Jakuden
              I think scientific/rational knowlege can lead you to a Zennish place because from a scientific perspective, we are clearly all made of the same stuff, no beginning, end, birth, death, or separation of any kind. Once that knowlege gets you to that place, though, then all you can do is dissolve into the soup and sit with it

              Gassho,
              Jakuden
              SatToday
              Yeah, science does that to you.

              Gassho
              Doshin
              Sattoday

              Comment

              • Rich
                Member
                • Apr 2009
                • 2614

                #8
                Originally posted by Jakuden
                I think scientific/rational knowlege can lead you to a Zennish place because from a scientific perspective, we are clearly all made of the same stuff, no beginning, end, birth, death, or separation of any kind. Once that knowlege gets you to that place, though, then all you can do is dissolve into the soup and sit with it

                Gassho,
                Jakuden
                SatToday

                I love soup. Even in Florida.

                Sat today
                _/_
                Rich
                MUHYO
                無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

                https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

                Comment

                • Getchi
                  Member
                  • May 2015
                  • 612

                  #9
                  During summer, we drink soup cooled when its too hot outside to be bothered eating.

                  Really reminds me of my fav movie"when am I not myself?"

                  SatToday
                  Geoff
                  Nothing to do? Why not Sit?

                  Comment

                  • Jishin
                    Member
                    • Oct 2012
                    • 4821

                    #10
                    I like soup too. My choices have been more limited since I am trying to be a vegetarian. There are plenty of choices though. I really like a cup of soup followed by a nice salad. Always satisfied when I can arrange it like this. It's too hard to cook though so I get only soup sometimes from a can at home with no salad. If I go out to eat I always look for soup and salad on the menu. But sometimes salad does the trick alone. It's about dinner time in Texas. Maybe this is why I am scheming my next meal. Or not [emoji3]

                    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

                    Comment

                    • Rich
                      Member
                      • Apr 2009
                      • 2614

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Getchi
                      During summer, we drink soup cooled when its too hot outside to be bothered eating.

                      Really reminds me of my fav movie"when am I not myself?"

                      SatToday
                      Geoff

                      In the summer it's soup on the rocks -)
                      😊😁
                      _/_
                      Rich
                      MUHYO
                      無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

                      https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

                      Comment

                      • Rich
                        Member
                        • Apr 2009
                        • 2614

                        #12
                        Bodhidharma never wrote anything. His students, disciples or scholars wrote, miswrote, interpreted and misinterpreted what he said and then Red Pine comes along and translated that. I think reason is just a navigation tool and the above excerpt gives it way too much importance and is misleading.

                        Will sit now
                        _/_
                        Rich
                        MUHYO
                        無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

                        https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

                        Comment

                        • Jishin
                          Member
                          • Oct 2012
                          • 4821

                          #13
                          Hey Rich,

                          Why did Bodhidharma come to the west?

                          Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

                          Comment

                          • Jundo
                            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                            • Apr 2006
                            • 40772

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Jeremy
                            from Bodhidharma's "Outline of Practice", translated by Red Pine

                            Jeremy
                            st
                            Well, the Outline of Practice is the one piece attributed to Bodhidharma that some scholars actually think has a fair change of being by Bodhidharma (or a very close disciple).

                            But in any case, the use of "reason" in Red Pine's Translation is problematic. It would not mean "reason" in the sense of Western logic, but rather something like "Principle" or "Grocking How The World Is", Understanding the Truth. Here is how the late scholar John McRae put it ...



                            Gassho, Jundo
                            Last edited by Jundo; 03-21-2016, 12:29 AM.
                            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                            Comment

                            • Joyo

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Rich
                              Chill out. Relax, enjoy. Just sit. That's it, nothing else to get.

                              Just sayin cause knowing a 1000 excuses not to sit and thinkin there was a bottom to all this.

                              SAT today


                              Gassho,
                              Joyo
                              just woke up, time to sit =)

                              Comment

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