Ordination

[Kokuu]

Dear all

I was reading that in the early Buddhism, five monks (bhikkhus) of at least ten years' standing need to be present in order for ordination to be official.

Is this rule present in Zen or has it been dropped?

Having more than one mature bhikkhu present makes sense to avoid allowing renegade monks/priests to ordain lots of students on their own without wider approval but it would probably be an issue to get five suitably qualified individuals in many modern sanghas.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

[Jundo]

Hi Kokuu,

I just doubtle checked the Gyoji Kihan, the Soto Shu "Rule Book" for Ceremonies, and I do not see mention of a number, although it is written as if some monks are there to assist the Preceptor.

Muho does not mention so in his descriptions ... although he does mention what sounds like a good party after!

Monk’s ordination (shukke tokudo)

Requirements differ from teacher to teacher, but on the material side you need the whole outfit (inner and outer robes, belts, o-kesa, rakusu, kechimyaku (transmission chart) and eating bowls), which can be quite expensive and/or time-consuming to make (at Antaiji, you write your own kechimyaku, while the rakusu and o-kesa are donated. The rest you have to buy). You also need to be willing to take the precepts, although no-one here in Japan expects you to keep to their letter. Actually, at Antaiji most ordination ceremonies are followed by a party that involves drinking, although abstaining from alcohol is part of the precepts.

The whole ceremony consists of first receiving the materials and then taking the precepts. It takes about an hour, there is lots of chanting and dozens of prostrations for the ordinaiee to be made. You need to make a photograph or two as proof during the ordeal, otherwise it will not be recognized by the Soto-shu headquarters.

You send in the photograph with a form with your name on it (both lay name and ordination name consisting of two Chinese characters) and a copy of your passport. The registration fee is 2000 Yen. The form also needs to be signed by the teacher, who has to be an authorized temple priest. After a month or so, you receive an official document from the headquarters that recognizes you as a Soto monk in training, together with a small handbook that is supposed to introduce you to your vocation
http://antaiji.org/en/english-what-d...-whole-deal-1/

And Dogen in Shobogenzo Shukke and Shukke Kudoku does not say anything on number of witnesses, nor does the translation of the oldest existing rules from China ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=91OPcSUTFQ0C&dq=Guanzhong+chuangli+platform&q=ordination+ceremony+%22borrow+the+robes%22#v=snippet&q=ordination%20ceremony%20%22borrow%20the%20robes%22&f=false

Korean temples do seem to require "6 to 9" of "most senior monks" to witness according to Buswell ...

http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/index.php/The_Ordination_of_Monks_and_Novices_(Korea)

In any event, I do not think that most Sangha in the West would follow such a rule, and even now it might be hard for smaller Sangha to find that many Ordained witnesses, especially of so many years experience.

One thing I know for sure: The "10 year" rule was definitely NOT the rule during the first ten years of Buddhist ordination history.

Of course, our Ordinations at Treeleaf are witnessed by everyone as we netcast to our members and the world.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jundo]

I googled images of "Shukke" Homeleaving ceremonies among groups in the West. From the photos of ceremonies, it sure looks like many of the groups would have trouble to muster that many Ordained witnesses, whether or not with that many years experience.

https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=%22ordination+ceremony%22+shukke+zen&biw=1745&bih=868&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7s8G8h_HKAhUMj5QKHdlvCk84FBD8BQgGKAE#tbm=isch&q=shukke+tokudo+

Thank you for asking. It is interesting.

Gassho, J

[Kokuu]

One thing I know for sure: The "10 year" rule was definitely NOT the rule during the first ten years of Buddhist ordination history.

Of course, our Ordinations at Treeleaf are witnessed by everyone as we netcast to our members and the world.

Ha! Yes, that is true, although likely many of the rules like this were instituted later in any case.

For me, I can't see that you first ordination of a Treeleaf member (Fugen?) is any less genuine than later ones where there are more unsui present to witness.

As Zen seemed to simplify some of the Vinaya rules it seemed to me that this would be another case of that happening.

Thank you for the answer and links.


Kokuu
#sattoday